TMBS -100- Cornel West & Rogan + Fmr. Brazil Foreign Minister Celso Amorim ft. Brooke Thomas

TMBS -100- Cornel West & Rogan + Fmr. Brazil Foreign Minister Celso Amorim ft. Brooke Thomas



it is very very disturbing when I hear the millionaire or billionaire word and I told them just stop it knock it off infrastructure no bumps in the road it needs to be simple it's simple this is not beanbag I feel I have to get the gushing out at first you see people's feedback loops interrupted [Applause] 52% of American Millennials would like to live in a socialist or communist America socialism here in America [Applause] yes indeed whoo yes indeed yes [Applause] mf'er I want more iced tea and maybe we need a solution to it that risks the imagination of a new kind of possibility [Laughter] hashtag me too I knew this day had come but I didn't expect it so soon Hatake ermita de Blasio personalization now for a pocket of a dinky was inevitable my personal tinea report mocha Ferrentino give a mimosa Yamasaki if so let me read the four important focus me do me do my force a possible with a video my fault attitude yeah police Ooty your Tama business and Turkish eat pasta québécois for the new mundo surgeon in only perceive you two materials are not a complete pedometer to DNA opposite criterias and positive three effector 2d you say if the village hundreds a grab that key to those noisy videos color car in that gentle Camilla Georgia the for eternity on whatever Nakata the space was fabric could be the Brasilia for essence a BT person does a detention dozen kumi-sama Baja bada Babu feijoada model is my muchas de Madrid in Makaha nada Mizuki you can't bomb Iran T no means over nunca te vas upon you kumi rejecting us object amore don't pretend aphasia Wahoo's invisible ah do you have a flipped welcome to the Michael Brooks show it is episode 100 thank you everybody appreciate every single person that has made this possible including of course the whole team Matt David David Forrest Vic Artesia Marc Ben rich ton of people helped make this happen and make it happen every week and of course each and every one of you watching most importantly our patrons but everybody who interacts and shares we appreciate it we're going very strong and only gonna continue to do so catch him promoting Bernie Sanders on this week's program the great Brooke Thomas she's making her debut on T MBS she's a TV journalist anchor she's a co-host on The Young Turks we're talking about the bizarre assassination of a Gambino family crime boss and how it relates to the queue and on conspiracy culture then we're also talking about the Central Park five and how why they tell you absolutely everything you need to know about this grotesque thing Donald Trump that's in the White House then very excited about this cell so Ameren he's the former foreign minister of Brazil he served as foreign minister under political prisoner Lula da Silva he served as defense minister under Dilma Rousseff we did a 40-minute conversation on the rise of the global far-right the failure of globalization democracy Lula and what a non-aligned foreign policy looks like I recorded this just a couple of days with him we're playing it tonight then we have a gem with David Griscom what do we have on the grid oh by the way we need to fix that graphic I can't use that graph no skill of expert okay the economic what do we have David we're gonna be talking about why we need to take control of our our plants across the United States to have a green new deal very nice socialism here and of course we have a shout out in the postgame dissecting Kamala Harris's health care moves Boris Johnson's first couple of days in office a strategic plan against the Lib Dems and visit touching on what's happening in Yemen and a whole lot more on the Michael Brooks show special Wednesday show excuse me special Monday show tonight of course next Tuesday we're back to regular schedule August 6th professor Richard wolf returns to discuss China but first something really exciting happened a couple of days ago Cornel West the most important public intellectual in America went and visited Joe Rogan and Joe and I follow each other on Twitter and I believe in positive reinforcement so I gave him a huge amount of props for this exchange of actual ideas history and human spirit Cornel West has so much to teach every single part of the left and really every single person who strives to do politics culture humanity better but let's start with the notion of how he relates to the left and how he goes on a platform like Rogen's he doesn't for at any point sacrifice his core commitments he spoke regularly on the real history of this country the genocide of Native Americans the ongoing legacies of slavery white supremacy he spoke strongly on the rights and humanity of transgender people but he did it in a way that was broad inclusive and ultimately profoundly appealing to all people because it was not rooted in hectoring moralism a seek to purify a seek to cancel or a subculture but in fact in large argument of how dismantling these systems and understanding how history actually works will make all of our lives better this is the radical uncompromising yet profoundly inviting and visionary message that we need to embody as the left and no one does better than Cornel West check him out with Joe Rogan here reframing socialism that is this narrative and how does that narrative get reshaped because that narrative of that the only reason why people want socialism is because they want a free ride right right whoo that's a wonderful question but the one is that you had first we had to listen very closely to our right-wing brothers and sisters and conservatives and Midler's because oftentimes I mean they're human means like anybody else and they've had their own arguments I don't think they have strong ones but they have their own arguments so the first thing you say about that is what makes you think that the well-to-do don't have free rides what is inheriting wealth all about well inheriting wealth is free rap salutes all it is what is freak the connection so getting into the prep schools and then Ivy League schools and so forth even though they work is still a kind of free ride so if they're preoccupied with this issue of being free ride we tell them let's make sure that people do work hard yes and sacrifice and therefore in some way deserve what they have now if just based on that principle the upper echelons of American society would be indicted yes deep deeply blended deeply profoundly indicted he invited he brought to broaden the frame and then actually won the larger actual argument here about what privilege what access what supposedly not doing the work is he also wasn't afraid of celebrating greatness there's no contradiction between a radically egalitarian democratic politics that materi everybody that still is gonna want to pursue human distinction and greatness and artistic athletic and all other endeavors he celebrates that he talks about a rich and dynamic culture along with understanding profoundly our interdependence both to each other and in our broader ecology his ability to recognize people as complex individuals beyond how capitalist realism and projects that flow out of capitalist realism see them only as competitive subjects in a market or the essentialist left simply as amalgamations of identities with a script of identities and behaviors that are acceptable or unacceptable he sees people as broad living organisms and that's why when he even calls Donald Trump a gangster even someone is Donald Trump which is you could not find an easier person to simply write off for being a thoroughly grotesque evil person than Donald Trump he's up there in the top tier Cornel West is still turning back on himself in terms of I have my own gangster traits the irony of this ability to self access and not exclude anybody in a fundamentalist fanatical way actually incentivizes the types of self inquiry and capacity to actually truly transform institutions individuals economics and behaviors and culture when Gramsci talked about hegemony he was talking about a bra a bold strategy to win over people to Marxism from across cultural and regional groups not to force a specific culture on society we need to be winning over football fans hype beasts and everyone else that doesn't mean you for a second compromise on your values I've never seen somebody more committed frankly to a broader set of values Marxist Christian humanist civic and revolutionary than Cornel West that synthesis that broadness that's why I admire the man so much there's too much focus on making socialism a social distinction it's it's a movement for a liberation that means including many different people and of course that brings us back to mark Fisher's genius 2014 essay that we haven't fully absorbed yet the vampire Castle a socialism that's exclusive cannot win and is exactly the kind of toxic strategy that we need to avoid an all costs and only plays into the hands of capital as Mark Fisher argued why would capital be concerned about a left that replaces class politics when moralizing individualism that's far from building solidarity and spreads fear and insecurity this is also why though that when we talk about things like love and vision and empathy it includes all of that includes the changes and includes the transformations in a broad inviting and strategic way Gramsci said the popular element feels but does not always know or understand the intellectual element knows but does not always understand and in a particular does not always feel we need to free ourselves from the habit this is also Gramsci from the selected writing we need to free ourselves from the habit of seeing culture as an encyclopedia of knowledge and Men as mere acceptable receptacles to be stuffed of empirical data and a mass of unconnected raw facts which have to be filled in the brain as columns of a dictionary and neighbouring their owner to respond to the various stimuli of the outside world and finally the challenge of modernity is to live without illusions without becoming disillusioned I'm a pessimism because of intelligence but an optimist because of the will as Cornel West shows the Left can talk about ourselves as individuals even as we speak about our broader spiritual revolutionary and social desires we don't have to choose between achieving personal greatness at the at the expense of our neighbor or comrades and we don't have to choose to shrink back from challenging and transforming ourselves from new systems of isolation control and hectoring we can win with a politics of of community inclusivity and inclusivity we just need to build it that's why West did so well on Rogen and I really mean it look I don't think it's nobody is perfect and another part of evolving a healthy culture is not putting anybody up on a pedestal but that being said there is no one else with this sort of age and stature right now holding all of this besides Cornel West I mean I cannot emphasize he is absolutely the most important public intellectual we have and we have an abundance I mean we have many amazing contributors Angela Davis is still with us we get to hang out with them with Richard Wolffe obviously Chomsky of course and people across the globe it's actually great shame power of sadness to me that Ozma Jahangir past a credible Pakistani rights activist but Cornel West holds these different threads in a way that's absolutely unique and we need to model and learn from do you guys have anything you want to add to this I know I I generally agree I think the way Cornel buttered Rogen up talking about Richard Pryor for the first like 20 minutes masterful and I also think you know it does damn thing cuz evident a little bit after this clip we're talking about inheritance rogon shifts it I think I don't know if it's consciously or not but shifts it on a more comfortable ground like military wasteful spending right and that's something that like is easier to swallow for the more libertarian elements of his listenership but at the same time when he was talking about this inheritance stuff I mean there's a big smile on my face cuz there's a whole bunch of people in that crowd that have not heard the exact opposite numerous times on that plop solutely and getting fairy tales and bedtime stories naturalizing that stuff yeah and you know on top of it I think that Cornel West's the model that he was presenting of socialism as of movement like I thought it was really interesting actually that they talked about music and art so much in that conversation and I don't think that was an accident or distraction in fact what Cornel West was doing was talking about historical movements of human greatness in art and actually including the movement for democracy and for socialism as a part of those human expressions and I think a lot of people who are really into Joe Rogan and even some of these other more right-wing figures they are sort of looking for models or ideas of greatness and the fact is as West shows we have incredible folks to look at and thinking about ourselves in that kind of tradition I think is actually really lovely and you're going to be able to win a lot of people over with that and it was a and it was also beautiful the way he handled the cultural appropriation thing once again in a way that just transcends the dichotomies of the a historical racism and elimination of distinction and total lack of understanding of just material and intellectual theft that you get from the right and then this extreme counter sup you know proposal which literally means you know actually acts as if culture is in isolated boxes cultural apart time and it absolutely and that's literally not how it works I mean we actually one of the great advantages we have against totalizing right-wing narratives against things like quote-unquote Western civilization is that that isn't how culture works that isn't how history moves so why would we buy into that presupposition and actually that's where you get a really disturbing the dynamic where some of the really extremes of that type of approach starts to echo the new resurgent far-right interest in the nation-state which is the emphasis one justified one unjustified but at the same time the the pure emphasis of the particular over the universal and if we don't have a universal we're simply not gonna win and we're also not going to be involved in a broader Liberatore project nobody again does that better than Cornel West and just like to echo his words I mean what he said about that question was there are roots and there are routes and he was able to find that line where he was saying is like look here these are movements that come from black you know the black tradition the black culture in the black history and he says and their routes are global and like that's like the libertarian shal of it and that's why this is such a you know beautiful thing and I found that that was really smart rather than sort of falling into a trap that it's somebody on the right my love you know oh my god he's saying there's no such thing as cultural appropriation he didn't say that I don't know he didn't he like quite literal I think but there's course there's a distinction that we will have to make and there's a fake version of the set the right-wing likes to push up and then some people are you know on the left accidentally push up as well and he toured that down and made it very clear what that distinction was absolutely all right uh let's get to the shoutout gentlemen although of course the anytime you talk about Cornel West that's basically a shot that's amazing the shoutout and maybe that we should just do in everyday as shot every week a shout-out until the end of this campaign no Bernie segment this is now Bernie yeah the shout-out is now the Bernie segment shout out to Bernie Sanders the candidate to vote for if you really want to take on some things and if you're not wasting your time right now wasting your time Bernie Sanders you know foreign policy is not only inseparable from domestic policy it's also as Daniel best 'nor always emphasizes and some and for some very bad reasons by the way is the area that a president has the most immediate power over the fact that every single other Democratic candidate in the lead is at the end of the day recapitulating and restating some form of warmed-over Obama ISM and clintonism sure it will be a significant improvement over Trump but that bar is low as hell and we need a foreign policy that has some understanding of solidarity some understanding that we need to stop constant war significantly cut the military-industrial complex and have an honest honest approach even if it is not as radical as people with broader critique so I'm sure my position on israel-palestine is to the left of Sanders that being said even just a moderate and clear recognition of Palestinian humanity you're not hearing in any substantive and consistent way from any other candidate although some like beta O'Rourke will be willing to state the obvious that Benjamin Netanyahu is of course a racist but consistently and Peter Bernard himself noted this on Mehdi Hassan's show recently Bernie is the one who is willing to go to organizations and question the broader policy Elizabeth Warren's never been willing to do that Kamala Harris and Cory Booker are to the far extreme right on this position as is of course the ever odious Joe Biden and just a note on Beto you know cuz pedo has said some good things about Netanyahu being you know racist or whatever he said right but the thing is how tepid that is is I remember before I even worked at majority report when Netanyahu came and spoke in front of the GOP House and even the House Democrats at that point we're able to get their shit together except for except for Tulsi Gabbard oh yeah Elsie Gabbard went and that was when the Republicans brought Netanyahu there to actively undermine Obama's Iran deal and Democrats including people like Tim Kaine didn't go Tulsi went so again I would note that speaking of wasting your time speaking of wasting your time word and will also talk about that anti-free speech anti-democracy BDS vote in the postgame this is Bernie Sanders on crooked media stating the absolute bare minimum obvious but one that is incredibly politically courageous and you will not hear from any other candidate even very critical of Bibi Netanyahu and the Israeli government we spent a few billion dollars on aid to Israel would you ever consider using that aid as leverage to get the Israeli government to act differently absolutely absolutely I mean we are giving large sums of money look I mean let me back it up before the tweet starts again I lived in Israel actually I worked in a couple bits for enough I just gonna say it's interesting how nervous Favreau is like that laughter he gave there you can tell like even this question is a bit much promotable the utter neuroses about just having an honest conversation about this including with somebody who I mean another thing just really briefly by NART and Hasan noted is that you will see because of this moderate humane position some right-wing Jewish groups will try to defeat the first possible Jewish president United States because he recognizes Palestinians or human beings that's how utterly distorted this conversation is but go ahead William I lived in Israel actually I worked in a kibbutz for a number of months I have family in Israel I am Jewish I am NOT anti-israel okay I believe that the people of Israel absolutely the right to live in peace independence and security and the discussion that is what I fervently believe but I think what has happened is in recent years under Netanyahu you have an extreme right-wing government with many racist tendencies the role of the United States and this is not easy you know I believe in Clinton tried it mama tried it Jimmy Carter tried it this is not easy stuff is to try to finally bring peace to the Middle East and to treat the Palestinian people with a kind of respect and dignity they deserve our policy cannot just be pro-israel pro-israel pro-israel it has got to be Pro region working with all of the people all of the countries in that area that basic step again from a left perspective that recognizes that of course is rules an apartheid state and of course the policies in Gaza in the West Bank are monstrous and of course they've cost many Palestinian lives and of course they're analogous to Jim Crow and everything else but the reality of our politics and also in the vein of Cornel West I would suggest and I would argue that the first starting point of an assertion that we are going to have a human conversation that recognizes Israeli and Palestinian humanity is a radical shift that you will not see from any other candidate so shout out to Bernie Sanders he is the choice we have a triple a unique opportunity here he it's not just that he's the leftist most left on foreign policy on domestic policy he's reset the entire terrain and on domestic policy and now he's leading point on foreign policy yeah when it comes to Tulsi Gabbard or Elizabeth Warren here's what you need to do it needs to be simple keep it simple tank shut up with that stuff goes exactly and certainly certainly with us because we don't have any time for any nonsense all right let me just say cuz we have to get to the great Brooke Thomas let me just say obviously we we passed a near-term goal thanks all of you we past 2500 the next goal is obviously 3000 we want to get to that in the fall and it helps us do all the content we do in fact it's the way we do all the content we do and it's a huge amount of content majority report is gonna be stealing our thumbnail style that we've been pioneering lately the pioneering on the on the on the YouTube yeah I'm the YouTube I bet they are that's of course shouts to Vic Vienna and forest for that so for their their editing and strategy everybody who's made this show possible I just have to thank all of you join us now for 21 and above patrons in the month of August we're doing a three part series Joshua Kahn and I uh the conference calls will be movement training calls building off of the content with Joshua patreon.com slash T mb/s get your tickets to Chicago August 24th they're flying and we want to see you there with Chuck Mertz from this is held radio and gene Basler left his best Midwest fest we're gonna take a brief break we'll be right back with Brooke Thomas [Laughter] all of a sudden hello good morning Patriots good morning rebel I think this is an intellectual curiosity expedition the rats the hyenas stop the beat each other they come on to your points they go ad hominem seems that there's a much more negative view of fascism than communism and there's the worst cover-up ever [Laughter] welcome back to the Michael Brooks show episode 100 thanks everybody joining us now making her debut on this auspicious show is Brook Thomas she's a TV journalist and co-host at the Young Turks Brook thanks for being here thanks for having me I'm really glad doing it it's awesome to have you we are gonna talk about we're gonna have a very New York centric show and we have at least segment and let's start we're gonna we're gonna do the bizarre messed up one second and do this really disgusting but really important one first and we're gonna play this clip of Donald Trump talking about the Central Park five and to me there's a lot of conversation about the Central Park five and I feel like an you know there's a new show on Netflix it's back in the public conversation uh and to me obviously there's thousands of different examples of Donald Trump he's sort of like a synthesis of all of the worst things about this country but I think you could look at the Central Park five as the perfect window into understanding everything about this man and his presidency so I'm gonna throw to you in a second but first I just want to play 15 seconds of a PBS documentary of Donald Trump talking about the Central Park five I hate the people that took this girl and raped her brutally you better believe it and it's more than anger its hatred and I want society to have Brooke do you first of all could you talk a little bit about and I believe you call them The Exonerated five and Donald Trump's relationship to them yeah well it's it's bizarre because as a private citizen he you know we've had issues with rape period with how he handles his own buildings his own company we know that from the beginning but as a private citizen he took it upon himself to take out this full page ad essentially asking for the death penalty for at that point was a group of five children who hadn't been convicted of anything else it was just this is the story going around the city this is who did it there were these kids in the park they were doing all kinds of crazy things and this is what happened to a woman who doesn't remember what happened to her and they need to die I was talking about something the other day I think that the Central Park five case in general it's it exposes so many problems with our criminal justice system one how easily this it's and I hate like kind of using the phrase that mob mentality but it really doesn't happen like um it's more than we were talking about you know cancelling and after a tooth said the N word as we're talking about people's lives and children's lives but none of really the details were out at all those real treat for real DNA or identifiable evidence or witnesses and everyone decided that these five boys did it because they were look like kids who weren't from great neighborhoods and the man who was to become the President of the United States he felt on that and was a leader in that he spent thousands of dollars to call for their deaths not only that and we do have the same issues with the criminal justice system when how children are treated in the problems that can occur when you send a kid to Rikers and then commence penitentiary you know I see so many issues and my biggest issue with this now is that the President of the United States is still not willing to apologize after they said wholly exonerated and not only that but you know yeah yes so they have been exonerated the man who actually did this confess not only did he confess but the DNA put him at the scene of the crime just him only him he confessed completely he knew details that would never release not only that but he was a serial rapist in a motorist and not only were these five boys their lives are ruined I am glad that they're still alive and they're able to change their lives now but there were things that happen to these boys at the time that they can never take in never go back Mickey never just wipe away integrase you put somebody in prison as a child and one of the boys was sent to a men's prison a state prison when you put them in jail in prison as children for years you can't just wipe that clean and the trauma that comes from that once they are set free so the other lives have changed forever but not only did the person who did this woman you know big part at least of their lives but there were women who wouldn't have been raped women a woman who wouldn't have been murdered her children would still have their mother had the police and focus on catching the person whose DNA was at the scene at the time yeah and I just want to read out it's Korey wise Raymond Santana Kevin Richardson Antron McCray and Yusuf Salim and they were all charged between the ages of 14 and 16 years old they were dragged into a police station they were not given proper representation and they were basically bullied into confessing to something they didn't do and at the time there was this whole idea I think was I'm I'm so bad right now because I'm forgetting and I think was called Wilding but there was yeah that's like tabloid can you talk about that that and I guess to like with Trump and I just want to quote really briefly – he wrote this is all you know in block letters I just want to say I'm not even trying to make a cheap joke here but it's like this is something that Donald Trump actually paid for right like we know that Donald Trump is like a history of not paying people after they do work for him or anything he immediately actually wrote a check to get an ad in a New York newspaper saying bring back the death penalty bring back our police all in bold letters so there's like a through-line of as you said the criminal justice system then there is this tabloid culture that makes up this you know this notion of like Wilding versus like yeah I don't know kids of all backgrounds teenage boys you know get up to shit and then there's Donald Trump once again cuz I can't separate this from the way he talks about ms-13 or terrorism or Elijah Cummings right like this is the methodology of his politics yeah yeah it did the words and that's when people say and I don't want to get off topic too much but when people say should we be focusing so much on the racism on the word yes because people will tell you over and over and over again leave words are dangerous they lead to violence and these words match how have you treated brown people at the border so yes we should be focused on what comes out of his mouth we should be focused on who he was willing to rent an apartment to yes we should be focused on him spending tens of thousands of dollars to ask for the forgiven sixth amendment when it's black kids huh you know we should be focused on the fact that he was willing to spend thousands of dollars to ask for a bunch of kids to die right and he said recently in front of the White House there are people on both sides of that they admitted their guilt if you look at Linda Farris Dean if you look at some of the prosecutors they think the city should have never settled that case so I'll leave it at that which is so upsetting because the city shouldn't settle that case they wouldn't have given out forty-one million dollars they just wouldn't have why but you know they wouldn't and they did they settled that case without it's admitting wrongdoing but they settled that case and of course the woman whose career on the backs of these boys of course she doesn't believe the city should have settled if it doesn't prove anything right do you feel like there is some way of understanding like there's the racism there's the fear the crime and race panics but like something about like understanding like tabloid culture like a lot of people talk about the reality TV but there's something very specific I think about late tabloid culture and Donald Trump – what do you mean I mean like the way that you if you listen to how he talked about like putting this ad in a newer tabloid and in the 80s the way like all of the Howard Stern interviews some of which like I'm not gonna lie I think are pretty funny but it's like and then going on Fox News like it each step of his career he's like going to these very like tabloid places and then like almost like learnt like refining how he's gonna like sell things to people whether it's reality TV or racism or presidential campaign or a casino I mean I could be off on it but to me like when I read about this because again it was Trump but it was also the New York Post the New York Post had a headline with a picture of these boys and it said animals Ed Koch said things like this there was something like the the media was driving it as well in a very significant way that's where the whole like Wilding thing even comes from why problems like that I still thought about that problems like that are Trump is not the only races in the world and a lot of well-meaning people have it for lack of better words but racial blind spots and yeah and they're not willing to hire people of color in these newsrooms for many different reasons I was just waiting at peace and I want to send me Oh Times Magazine about the former editor-in-chief of Vanity Fair and he was asked you know in his 25 year tenure was he willing to Whoopi what about his hiring practices so when it comes to hiring having diverse hiring practices he said that he hired by space on talents and the reporter Cossack was like yeah well everybody says that and it's true everybody says that and there are no black people no brown people in any of these jobs are the greatest publications that are quick to just call out how many disparities in our criminal justice system and our health care system and our educational do not have black and brown people in their newsroom some of the biggest most amazing places in politics who are all willing to you know say that black women in the south of who's going to decide this primary don't have black women on their staff you know what I mean it's and so it's we're even now right to the point where we're acknowledging black and brown people in their contribution Society but they're still not getting a job way back then it was even worse and that's what happens you have a lose roomful of people who are all and not all that a lot of people it's actually scared of little black boys or don't have a problem with that there's not enough people to speak up and say hey you know what we shouldn't publish that hey you know what we should call it racism because it is but you know whatever you like the problems that we're still having today that is a symptom of the same because we think that so I'm not surprised by that I'm not surprised you something like that took off because that's just America right and that's happened and you don't have people that live through this world with a different perspective that's what happens when you don't have them next to you you have your own belief and you're willing to publish that as truth there are a lot of speakers in the South that are all that just now coming up National Geographic just get it a lot of them now coming out and we'll select publish this editorial apologizing for how they feel racism decades ago and how it caused actual like physical harm to black people in the south and how the National Geographic perpetuated this horrible stereotypes about black women and so I mean we're trying to get there I'm not surprised that's what happens and there's not enough people around you to say well wait a minute they're right let's not call it gives animals you know right let's not right right right right just even like this very basic like I don't know it's like capacity building that just like when you are not in a monoculture yeah that's right I want this in a way in a very I mean there's a couple of like odd connections about what we're about to talk about next it's way less important but we have tabloid we have people believing wild nonsense and we have New York so I want to play a brief clip just to set this up I don't know if people remember four months ago the head of the Gambino crime family was assassinated in Staten Island Brook I feel a little bit guilty to admit this look I don't want I don't want there to be violence I don't want people to be hurt but as somebody who reads a lot of books about Colombian drug cartels the Mafia I was like oh wow it's a new war about to happen in New York City I was thinking of a lot of like comedic scenarios of like a hit in front of like an acupuncture clinic you know but like I'm always drinking I'm like afraid to be reading them right wait why are you afraid to be reading them why afraid the reason was great to like tweet about El Chapo afraid to be caught bleeding then I don't know Laura's like no that chick on see Whitey's too smart well Michael is afraid to watch JFK by Oliver's that's a postgame story my friends like Matt's mad Brooke I'm gonna be honest Leona member ten pretend nobody else is watching or listening you know a lot of people like Matt is telling a private drug story from when I was like 15 years old it's a dunk on me just so we're clear about what's going on it's actually exactly what I would do frankly I'll just say I took mushrooms I was 14 or 15 I had to go home and my parents were asleep and I was really into the movie JFK at the time the Oliver Stone movie which not hold up well I put that on and 15 minutes into the movie Brooke I thought because I was in that state that the movie was part of the conspiracy and what happened is if you watch the movie the CIA knew you needed to be taken out so I crawled to turn it off so someone didn't snipe me through the window so I get it maybe we shouldn't even be talking about this no but Syd let me play this we never play I want to set this segment up for us we're gonna play a brief news report about this and I'm gonna throw to you Brooke cuz you know don't worry this is about we're really talking about cueing on we're in no way disrespecting the Gambino family in fact you'll feel bad for the boss of the Gambino family he got he got killed for doing the most righteous thing he's ever done in his life alright let's watch this mellow faces murder assault and weapon possession charges in the death of reputed Gambino family boss Francesco Frankie boy Cali high-power lawyer Robert Gottlieb is his defense attorney the issue of safety for for mr. Camillo while he's imprisoned is real I hear that bro it's real hello flashed a pan that reporters scrawled with pro Trump messages writing on his hand with blue ink Mogga forever and a large queue that was real that was what he wanted to express was that Dave additionally the NYPD said their officers had come into contact with Camello twice in February once at a New York courthouse where he told officers he wanted to make a citizen's arrest of congresswoman Maxine Waters and congressman Adam Schiff both Democrats and a day later at Gracie Mansion where he told officers he was there to arrest Mayor Bill DeBlasio thought LEM wouldn't clarify what his clients recent changes in behavior had to do with Callie's death Brooke what are you and again all respect to the five families but Brooke what do you think of this first of all my name is no longer booked [Laughter] no not amis guests right there was another part of that that I bet said it's really scary just thinking about the fact that this man actually the song wrapped up in this love for Donald Trump and willing to just do anything it blow out home logic but he walked up to what he knew was a la botulin how do it no house and knock on the door and asked him to come outside it at some point somehow he pulled a gun and shot the man but thinking about how that went down and how he tell his if I'm at least from his attorney he wanted to make a citizen's arrest and turn this man into the military for Trump right he also wanted to do that to the Honorable Congress or the Maxine Waters and what it just that scares me because I know there are a lot of threats against her constantly and just how this went wrong it worries me about like if he had gotten too close to her and how you know this is if this is all wild and crazy and then to think about how much scarier it could have been and that how there are people who in 2019 walking around willing to do stuff like this and their president generally he calls them good people not only good people I can imagine Trump like is you know I mean I think we know that Trump dealt with people like this in the 80s and the 90s imagined trumpet trumpet I had no idea if you could just convince them of q and on I could have dealt with all of my labor disputes his whole building could have been easier if Alex Jones was alive exactly they may have likes attention he likes attention you know you there was something at the beginning of that school about um the restaurants his life if you would like brother would you move definitely Oh Oh 100% I'm great I mean 100 no not somewhere that people don't go for fun or and what I had actually heard though did you here that yes he had this whole list of people because he's obviously out of his mind but that specifically he was upset at Callie because Callie told him to stay away from his niece which is why I was saying it's like it was this guy could have been killed for being like a nice uncle after all the other things he did in his life yeah right do you get I mean I just as like a final question I'm just kind of curious I mean do you out the queuing on stuff is like I don't like I'll have right-wing people like particularly kind of like you know twerpy IDW people will bother me like ben shapiro people whatever I don't really see queuing on stuff that much like in my timelines or my world but it clearly it's a really big thing to you do you like see it out there or do you have to actually read about it and learn about it I don't see it does it so even we don't see it because it doesn't make enough to formulate a complete sentence right you don't want JFK jr. to be still [Laughter] serious I never want to be trapped in that side of Twitter never never neither do I will never do another segment on the Mafia or cuing on again the Mafia Brooke Thomas I really really appreciate you doing this this is awesome we'll definitely have to have you on again soon if you can check out all of Brookes work she's a TV host an anchor and of course she is a part of our friends The Young Turks Brooke thanks so much for having this fun awesome take care okay all right folks I still can't get over that story honestly I know like one time Alex and I were supposed to talk about it but I mean he is in jail our in court after assassinating the head of the Gambino's doing this Q nonsense I mean I it's so it's so bizarre it's so like it is like an x dilated times dilated i to be fair to my external ajiz just the stupid way of saying what adam curtis says in all of his documentaries though in a way right i mean times getting dilated it's weird because i think the internet exists but i also think like when you look at the history of people who like taking shots at political leaders for instance they you have some weird causes themselves actually very true that is very true well to be actually pushed to that you probably have to be pretty I'll by a threat but I think the weirder thing about the q and on thing is how popular it is honestly like boomers right yeah and if he goes on like Trump's Twitter oftentimes I was screenshotting it the other day I'll maybe I'll find him later it's just like you know account after account going on about this so it's a pretty wide conspiracy theory unlike the other ones which are you know a little bit more contained right well I love the Moller is secretly working with Trump one alright folks here's what we're gonna do I'm really excited about this interview with Saul so a marine so I will appreciate and I don't look I don't necessarily look at the live chat that much but I will say this is one where don't spend the cell so a marine interview writing about who your favorite youtuber is pay some goddamn attention alright foreign policy magazine said this man was the best foreign minister in the world but uh in all seriousness I mean we covered a lot of ground here I'm really proud of this become a patron today that's how all of this happens get your tickets the Chicago live show when we come back from the interview David is gonna do his gem segment and now we're gonna know the postgame and we've got to talk about what's happening the UK and a whole bunch of other things this interview was recorded on Thursday and it's about it's about 40 minutes long and I the checkout celso's book which is in english called acting globally it came out in 2018 we'll be right back welcome back to the Michael Brooks show joining us now and it's very much an honor to have him on our hundredth show his Celso Amorim he served as the foreign minister in the lula da silva administration's 2003 to 2010 and he also served as a defense minister for dilma rousseff from 2011 to 2014 where at one time he was actually named the best foreign minister in the world by foreign policy magazine it's also Omron thanks so much for being here thank you Michael can you start will we'll work backwards but I'd like your thoughts on some things that and we'll certainly be talking about your work on behalf of President Lula who we have spent a significant amount of time talking about on this show it's recently come to our attention that President JR bolson ro wants to appoint his son as ambassador to the United States I will say as an American this is a very Trump style move spy kid me so I could see how that thought process might work what's your perception of that and more broadly what Boston ro has done to Brazilian foreign policy well let us start with your first part of your question I think for for Brazilian for someone who I'm a career diplomat originally so it's very shocking for me unlike the United States it's not a current practice to appoint people who are not people nuts as ambassadors I did that happens it has happened in the past it's not forbidden especially the second term in Lula or Doulos government there was no appointment of this kind but it's not as such of course in this case it's not only among diplomat but is his son which makes it let us say a kind of a family affair in it especially I mean someone who has no experience actually in foreign policy that's not my opinion you know this is the opinion of a conservative people that I have been commenting on that and you know the institution the foreign minister Brasilia temerity as it's known it's highly respected in Brazil and it has been a highly respected actually around the world like would see that or not that's not I'm not saying it's on my account that has been like that for 50 years or so and so to have someone with no experience practically no experience is already very shocking the fact that is a son is something that never happened in Brazil as far as I know to Washington it's not any post by the way and also but I'm probably more concerned with another aspect because all the opinions of this congressman Eduardo Busan are war extreme right-wing he's seen actually has been mentioned by Steve Barron as the representative of his movement for Latin America so actually what worries me more than anything else is the creation of a kind of an axis of extreme right right-wing people between the United States and Brazil so I don't know how are the relations between Steve Bannon and Trump now I know that he has been actually dismissed from I suppose in the in the White House well but you know that actually reminds me of Guevara and Fidel Castro I mean when yeah Guevara was getting too imported inside Fidel Castro asked him to go around the world and that's what that that seems to me that Steve Barron is doing and so III think this very much extreme right axis is dangerous for our hemisphere and for the world so this is what concerns me more than anything else well that's a powerful comparison I think it actually made perfect sense the Castro Guevara of comparison except of course in every regard in terms of style appearance humanity but yes can you can you elaborate on that a little bit more and and then we'll go back into the the kind of counter projects that you were involved in as foreign minister but when you look at the and so much of the conversation in the United States and so much of what we're doing on this program but also internationally as people deal with the rise of far-right politics in a variety of contexts United States Brazil India the UK so on France to a strong degree the debate is about conditions what leads to this what is it historically in terms of countries economic systems what is the racial histories what are the modern failures of center-left governments and I more broadly I'm well let me ask you that first what do you think is giving the bannon's of the world an opportunity in this moment what has led up to this one world few words is frustration with the results of globalization I mean I would say which is not something surprising because I think it would be expected but at the same time these people this is very much like some countries in Europe in in the circus you know the people are frustrated with economic conditions with everything that's happening at the same time they don't want to lose their privileges of what don't to lose what they see their privilege vis a vie of lower classes so they tend to extreme right options this is precise and tend to see enemies in people who are somehow below their own status I mean that happening in relation to two Jews or whatever but it it happens in our in Europe in relation to immigrants immigrants is also problem in the United States well in Brazil we don't have this problem so although people are trying to invent them actually Brazil didn't sign the actual sign but it went out of the new Convention on immigration and global immigration and this was pure imitation of Trump because we don't have an immigration problem it had the number of immigrants in Brazil is ridiculous it's much much smaller than the number of Brazilians will abroad now so but there is this compulsion to imitate Trump but coming back to the conditions I think there are always the people who are you know wait threatening your own situation maybe immigrants that maybe say Jews or foreigners or whatever and I think in our case this has to be seen internally as the people from lower classes threatening to have a better share in in the in the the GDP the the income and of course this was more or less tolerated when the economy was growing but once the economy falters and let us say the cake becomes doesn't does it grow so fast then the the reaction of the people who feel threatened and who frustrated by this globalized world order or economic order they tend to go against the poorer and they tend to embrace radical far-right doctrines I mean of course it's a very complex problem and I am oversimplifying it but I mean that's what I see in common between countries that are so different like the UK in Brazil Poland in the United States one of the things that's an exception in Brazil in some ways at least it seems to me and this is when we can you know start talking about the Workers Party record and the leadership of Lula and and the foreign policy you charted with him when it comes to the United States and the rise of Trump it's very easy well is not easy but one trajectory is the foundational and it manifests in different ways depending on economic conditions and circumstance but that this is a historically racialized and racist politics and then you look at the modern Republican Party Richard Nixon and the Southern Strategy and you can draw a straight line as outlandish as he is Donald Trump is in a clear tradition and then you can also say that our Democratic Party has you know in certain areas been at times more socially progressive and so on but it has not I mean it has not been something that has protected people from the bad effects of globalization you mentioned in fact it's been an agent of globalization ever of a very kind of corporate variety so in some ways the disillusionment and now we see the resurgence of Bernie Sanders and so on so it's it's much more complicated now but their disillusionment the United States seems very clear that the different causal conditions what shocked us is that in Brazil this happened and you have you know a president who pulled tens of millions of people out of poverty who really increased the broad-based well-being if President Obama did for the United States what Lula did for Brazil we would say he's the best president that we ever had so what's the sort of complication in the Brazil as simple as the economy slowing down under Dilma I don't know I mean I mean I don't know I mean who would say what precisely because in Brazil of course many people think that Lula is the best president we ever had the problem is that you have let us say the economic elite we doesn't want to go on dividing it's it's part of the of the national income you have the many people in the lower middle class who feel threatened I mean and they tend to think in comparative terms so the it is alright for them to be not not to be so well provided there are people who were lower than them but if these people are now growing precisely the reason why the right wing in Brazil grew it's precisely because Lula took one of the reasons is because because he took twenty thirty maybe forty million people out of poverty I mean that's threatening for those who consider themselves you know it's it's a very stratified society whereas you had slavery until very late in the nineteenth century actually the if you look at the Brazil as it is today although our forms of discrimination have been historical more subtle historically more subtle than those in the United States or certainly South Africa in the past but you know it's a very unequal society and these are several dimensions including a race dimension as well so I think when people say that see that I mean the place for their children and school might be in universities might be threatened by quotas or when they think that as some part of their income will be taken away to become to improve the sometime of the extra income would be taken away to improve the lot of the autumn the poorer people they attend especially when the economy becomes as it did it slows down and we had a very big recession when that happens you know all these things together tend to favor these extremist positions and which have of course racist connotations it has connotations in terms of gender it has connotations you know it's you know I saw now in Poland that they are trying to create the kind of areas in it which would be quote unquote free from LGBT or gays yeah yeah well this latitude maybe not yet the same measures but the same kind of attitude is now being seen in Brazil and the fact under the way that many of the progresses that were made in in relation to let us say African Brazilians of African origin or indigenous they are being rolled back which never happened before in Brazil I mean if you talk to a conservative in the 90s or the eighties or even the late Peter during the military dictatorship ability government the Conservatives would not agree with making more progress but they would not try to roll back that I mean that had never happened at least not in this scale that we're see now and this has to do with labor laws it has to do with many human rights provisions with indigenous people because I mean as I said and I think again I mean what causes people to embrace these ideologies I mean I don't want to sound in any way that I'm discriminating against any religion but I think some forms of fanatic fanatical religion hell I'm also something to do with that yes yeah I mean that seems very clear that in whether you're talking United States or Brazil or Saudi Arabia or Poland's that especially when there's a vacuum created for a constructive politics religion fanatical religion not all religion obviously but a fanatical religion came from science distrust from knowledge dispersed from culture all these I mean if you read books about Germany in the thirties it sounds familiar right so can you talk about the foreign policy that you charted with president Lula in two ways I mean one how does it it seemed like from reading about it and obviously you correct me if I'm wrong but that it was a seamless connection that the the incredible efforts and achievements against poverty and inequality in Brazil were connected to how Brazil saw itself in the world in terms of its relationships from from West Africa to the United States from the Caribbean to Israel Palestine and that and this you know I don't know if this is the right word but that there was an idea maybe of a non-aligned foreign policy not trying to have conflicts or bad relations with anyone but positive constructive relationships with all built on Brazil's historical connections well I think you're right when you say there is kind of let me just make a parenthesis here because you know I have a book which was published in United States by Rolen and Littleton which is precisely about the assertiveness of Brazilian foreign policy during the luteal Peter and I think that has a lot to do with the fact that with Lula coming to power in a way it was an anticipation of the slogan or the motto of Obama's I mean yes we can I mean yes we can have someone who was a work metal worker very very poor or even become president being faithful to his origins and still be able to conduct foreign policy in a very assertive way and as you said I mean Brazil did what it did at the time involved in very complex questions from w22 to the to the Iranian nuclear program I mean oh oh and became involved with Palestine and all the attendant integration of South America we doubled the number of our embassies in Africa but all that had to do with that assertiveness the to some extent had to do with coming to power to Lula and to the fact that when Lula came to power the biggest flaw of Brazilian Society which was inequality is inequality which said comes back from slavery but went on and on and on the biggest flaw was for the first time attack it seriously seriously I mean the bolsa família you know the steep Aegean lived in two families the quotas the programs for housing I mean all these things the family agriculture mind you many programs so that give us a kind of self-confidence that we didn't have before and of course Brazil is a big country you have borders with ten countries we have diversified relations in any case contrary to other countries because of geography or whatever history so all that gave confidence and allowed us to conduct this kind of foreign policy which was actually well received and I I tell you it's not that Brazil trying to be their present Brazil was cold I mean I remember for instance of the Egyptian Foreign Minister calling me and say please she also ask ask ask little to to call Shimon Peres because the situation here in Gaza or it was East Jerusalem I'm not sure now what it was the situation is untenable and Lula can difference don't under don't underestimate the influence of Brazil so Brazilian apparently is a characteristic of soft power that in spite of the problems that we still had but we were tackling them so we had tackled in the past the problem of democracy the problem of the absence of democracy we were tackled in the past in different governments the problem of the economic instability and now we below you we're tackling the biggest problem in my opinion which is social inequality so all that apart from the size of the country the the demographics the the economic Brazil is one of the ten biggest economies at some point was the sixth or seventh ID one not never very sure because this depends on exchange rates and so on but anyway so all these things put together was a strong diplomacy which is being destroyed now by this wall destroy or at least maimed now by this kind of action voice in world affairs you know I'm not speaking things abstractly I mean I'm say for instance we had grew in relation to the reform of Security Council which like Germany Japan India and Brazil so there so they can't so call aspiring countries to become permanent members in whatever format I mean that's a lot don't want to be that but I remember the German Foreign Minister asking me to say please also talk to the Africans because they listen to you they don't listen to me so much that he said he's was saying that so you know that's the kinda mixture of these national characteristics which are now being undermined I mean they were not so solid as we thought unfortunately that's why I have to admit that because even during the military regime in Brazil the military dictatorship it was seen as something somehow strange to the country no it was not it might have some popularity at some point when the reason was strong economic growth but the kind of hatred that you see now the kind of massive attack on culture on education on foreign policy because foreign policy of course necessarily has a an ideological dimension ideological not in the sense of being right or left but in the sense of solidarity or or self-assertiveness or whatever all these things are being attacked in a way that we'll never before not in the same not in the same scale so on the same scale so that's a again make us think that maybe many of the characteristics of the Brazilian people which we thought were positive like the tolerance and solidarity and so on were not so solid as we thought do you see them oh these are the user states of mind you have maybe proper leadership and proper conditions they may raise again rise again do you see specifically cuz I would like maybe you could speak to both things cuz I would like you to speak to Lula as a political prisoner but maybe even more broadly do you we spoke with Valeska Martines on the show several months ago we do a lot of coverage of foreign policy and the u.s. role in the world large role how do we navigate solidarity as we kind of you know as we sit in Brooklyn and and think through these things do you think there was a u.s. role in the law fair and political process against Lula and the Workers Party and if so where would that was that just because of the basic claims of sovereignty over Brazil of the Lula government well I think you know I don't want to make like one of the prosecutors here that he said oh I don't have the evidence but I have the conviction so I don't want to say the sense additional process is different from politics on politics you can make inferences yeah and what I would say is that by the logic of things IIIi have the impression that yes there was and by also the evidence scant evidence so that we might have but it's some evidence enemy of cooperation between the car wash operation and attorneys in the United States and the DOJ in the United States I think very probably yes there was a role for the United States how much it was a planned role how much it was instigating in the beginning by the United States or it was the other way round it started and when I see the United States it's not necessarily with knighted States government was not necessarily Obama actually mind you when when slowed and made those revelations about spying in Brazil Germany and other countries well Obama gave the impression that he didn't know I'm not sure that he knew or he didn't but anyway so there are things I mean which come from the intelligence community which come from other places or which come from the interests of financial capital in which not the government is not necessarily involved but if you read some declarations for instance from the former ambassador in Brazil us former undersecretary even deputy secretary under secretary in the United States Don Shannon you'll see that they he says more or less that that and I think this was in an interview I don't remember I don't know if those forms or anything else in the United States doncha upon Shannon saying that we followed with great attention concern I don't know what does the precise were what Brazil was trying to do in terms of integration of South America forming a block with great with more participation Rural Affairs now it's not him saying but I'm saying and at the same time you had things like the bricks which somehow had an impact on the world balance or whatever so I I would not be surprised and you had at the oil the findings of the oil in the deep sea in Brazil and the decision to take the oil for us so I mean if you take all these things together I would not be surprised that something I don't know if there is a deep state as such in terms of an entity but you know that these interests together could well have uncertain more or less certain that these have helped the law fair that take took place in Brazil and not only the law share also the political implications in Congress on otherwise I mean with impeachment of Dilma and all that I'm pretty convinced of that but you know I don't have evidence for everything but I think it's it's the natural thing and you know everything that we have seen from communications that were in the WikiLeaks to other things that even were said privately I mean in the case of the of the legal cooperation there was an alternative the United States who said very clearly directly we praised the kind of informal cooperation what is informal cooperation means the cooperation without the knowledge of the government's so adept what and if you take the National Security document in the United States it puts fight against corruption there's a number one thing which used to be fight against terrorism and now it's corruption okay it's okay to fight terrorism it's okay but it can also be used to regime change as it has been using in many places well that's actually and III hope I should just say I really hope that we can hold to you again if that's possible because there's so many other things I'd like to ask you about but I know we don't have so much time left but before we get to my my more sort of closing question that's a big concern to me this discourse of corruption both in terms of u.s. foreign policy and yes okay it maybe has exposed you know that former Malaysian Prime Minister as an example really was you know implicated in this sort of massive hedge fund sort of theft and so on it's not that it's not to deny the corruption I mean even if your depositions are right you go out there it were right or good today or not but they were right it's the reform of a toilet in a very poor farm in the interior of são Paulo and you know things like that so the charges against Lula are in our in our shock any time an American particularly Americans who are lawyers I will say who have no interest and no investment in this if they hear the basics of the case and they say hey man you know if you're telling me everything that's crazy how did that even make it to trial but the corruption rhetoric is a tool of u.s. foreign policy and then there's also the fact or that all of these right-wing governments that we've been talking about earlier Donald Trump talked about drain the swamp bolson ro said he'd get rid of corruption in Poland they have brought forward anti-corruption legislation in India Modi was quite connected to anti-corruption drives so you have in the case of someone like Lula that absolutely the charges from everything I can see are totally false and and and and and wrong but there's also a broader problem with usually politicians by the way that are very corrupt themselves using a language of corruption that makes it about morality not about the system itself of course Washington is corrupt it's run by special interest money of course you know this corruption in political systems but it becomes about personal morality of usually left-wing leaders or center-left leaders that can be demonized and then these right-wing politicians are able to use this very simplified rhetoric yes let me say one thing of course it's part of the u.s. foreign policy but it's a very much part also of the thinking of the elite in Brazil of course the bankers who gave yet millions and millions and millions of reais US dollars or whatever they are financing the the newspapers and the the media in general like the TV like to be global for instance and they are using this rhetoric to also I mean it's not something totally imported it's also important but it's also part of the ideology of the ruling classes when they can't find any other reason to or any other argument that will be convincing for the people corruption is a very strong thing in Brazil it's not the first time I mean with I mean of course for the times are the first so it's different it's beautiful to compare exactly but when we had Vargas in the second Vargas in the 50s were elected democratically but he ran policy that for the workers and also took decisions on sovereignty as you say in the question of the oil company Petrobras creating Petrobras creating a National Bank for development and so on the same thing happened he was accused of corruption very strongly there was almost a coup d'etat he committed suicide he died and nothing was discovered later it was abandoned because the objective was was there was obtained which was to do it so it is it is it's a very powerful weapon and very on the other hand very abstract so it's it's easy it's something that you can tell almost of anybody because what is corruption was it one Pacific bribe about one per job is to tolerating a bribe somewhere else was not even what is it I don't know when you listen to some of the attorneys in Brazil prosecuted for every doctor knees the they seem to say that Lula was the head of a big was the the couple of the whole thing and so he must have known on the other hand the accusations against him are not that there are formal accusations by which he was condemned don't don't deal with that because they know that they couldn't prove that so they use one thing politically and look for a very very absurd thing would it be right would be minor to accuse them with an absurd conclusion that Lula is the head of a criminal organization which all other members got much more than he I know this is in heart even to conceive of you know so it's very clear that the objective was to topple Dilma to prevent a lot from running because they don't want a progressive progressive government in Brazil and the progressive in Brazil has two dimensions I would say one is let us say towards internally to diminish inequality and there is an external one which is to have an independent foreign policy based on solidarity with other developing countries and being having good relations with United States I mean ruling Bush went very well actually I I went very well with with Colin Powell condi rice of course you had different points but different parts of you want some questions but very cordially very friendly so one thing did it didn't prevent the other but even so the independence after the crisis of did you have also to see the crisis of 2008 or the financial capital is needing more markets to be more sure about the markets so there is a combination of things there are geostrategic things you also have a big wave of course I mean everybody's you're preoccupied with democracy in Venezuela which ok have not also provided the marketing for those dollar but no one worries with democracy and Saudi Arabia right now I think they yes the worry about Saudi Arabia from the Trump administration is is is quite different to say the least maybe there's there's an opportunity for some very special forms of foreign direct investment from South I don't don't know no we have no evidence we have no evidence of this we know but certainly there's not a concern for democracy so as a final question I would like to ask you two things one that's you know more just sort of personal do you do you see and visit president Lula what is your sense of especially in light of you know we we interviewed Glenn Greenwald of course with all of these revelations and we've regularly fire followed the work of Brian Mayer and Brazil wire which is how we come to you and then more broadly if you're speaking to you know an audience that is everywhere but mostly in the United States what is the significance of freeing Lula as a political prisoner obviously first and foremost for Brazil but also in a way that is connected to the broader struggle against the kind of global far-right that we were talking about in the beginning well I think the liberation of Lulu would would have a global impact Lula is of course as serious a reformist a progressive but he's a man of dialogue he's a man no no one was put in prison no capitalist can complain of not being received by Lula or at least his representatives or his or her representatives so I think and what Brazil needs more than anything else now is dialogue peaceful dialogue between different and the recovery of the let us say the rational discourse because now it's irrationality it's typical of the far-right the irrationality to pay the far-right this is not new in the history of mankind humankind we have dealt with in the 30s as I mentioned before actually by the way you mentioned corruption being used and I the other day I was reading an article in IFFT in the illustration I don't know if it was in the paper but I met that's what I saw in Internet the illustration was a poster from 35 or 36 in Germany it's a big army and it's an official poster from Oracle gas Italy with an R an arm of a person which is creating fight corruption and written more right fight corruption and the hand was smashing Jews and communists right are used right and and do you see president Liu like zero but I think it is important for our all all developing countries and to a large extent ISM to the to the balance of the world because we'll be decisive I don't have any but you know if you have Brazil going in a more democratic way if India was going also a more democratic way you know and if we have a dialogue with different countries of different ideologies and so on this helps the world to find an end this was a you know I it's not only me I mean I was foreign minister Lula so it's natural that I'll try to defend his legacy but I heard that an extra promoted a seminar based on what I heard from Dominique developer who was foreign minister for a center-right government in France was shocked and he said we need Brazil for the world balance more than ever I mean he was speaking about Trump and this right-wing movement but it must be a democratic Brazil and that's really what we don't have now we are running fast to a very kind I'm very much concerned I don't want to use words because you know it's very easy to speak about fascism or whatever teach ideology has its time and but we are going to very extreme situations the denial of rationality that denial of science which affects environment affects Japan right affect whatever you want I mean and all that is very worrying and it's not new in the world it's new in Brazil and and do you see president Lula from time to time and how is he well five times after he has been in prison you know he can receive two visitors a week I mean apart from family also one what's a week and a part from the lawyers so I went there five times always it's someone else I sometimes Brazilian two in two cases was some foreign foreign visiting after the last one the latest one was the candidate of the object of the Christian equation and the just released party in in Argentina Oh Berta Fernandez who actually also was the person who introduced me to the Pope the Pope also has been speaking indirectly but he has been speaking about lawfare actually about more fair directly but in indirect about the Lulu situation Lula has a very high spirit it's very puzzling even for you to see someone who has been because it's jail after all I mean it's it's it's not luxury at all but it's maybe correct for someone to say it's not but he doesn't have a site outside it's the window there is a there's a uniform light comes in but he cannot see outside so it's in a way and he is spirit she's always thinking and analyzing the situation in Brazil proposing solution he reads a lot so he's prepared I mean it's very sometimes you have to be prepared to be in prison he's prepared to be put out of prison well it's also a marine we really really appreciate your time I missed that no I mean in the case of Lula indignation yes but no depression or whatever that's amazing we really appreciate your time salsa Ameren served as a foreign minister in the Lula da Silva government defense minister for Dilma Rousseff is also an ambassador to many countries besides that lifelong diplomat strategist I hope you can join us again sometime and we really appreciate it publishing in the US tell me the name of the book again please cuz we'll book is called it's precise about one of your questions so that's why I mentioned it at least globally memoirs of Raziel assertive foreign policy and it is published by Roman and lead open we'll have all of the information to the book as well in all of the show descriptions and people will find it thank you so much thank you okay folks and I just ordered that book of course salsa Ameren it was a real honor to have him on and a great debut of Brooke Thomas Matt coming and heavy to get a magic mushroom story out of me on the main show which I guess is for some people who go like I love the show but I want more comedy in the main part I was just trying to make the guests feel more comfortable helping you to relate I think Bernie or bust bill definitely needs to become an Andrew yang fan do you want to explain for a second Matt what the whole cursing thing is oh yeah actually crazy so YouTube has a fun little I called the Crowder rule where you have to self report your video for things like adult content drug glorifications all very well done yeah I know I'm you just keep grabbing more work for yourself mister water boat so now when you upload a video you have to do that for every single one of them so we're gonna try to mind a little bit better than I'm able Matt well done you really kept focused there flushing money down the drain terms of the profanity and drug free content you brought a certain level of focus a top precision it's all see it allowed you to efforts where may if Tulsi if you'd support Tulsi and ensuing Google then maybe you'd be able to use the proper language but you won't because you're a fuckin sellout and I'm sorry I had to do that the clip is already in ruins alright we have to do the gem segment before we get to the post game David Griscom what do we got yeah I mean so over the weekend there were massive power outages in Washington DC you know which were very significant around 39,000 people without power and whether that was in upper 90s you know they're not alone New York City also had a major power outage and I Madison helpfully choosing to put the power off in Canarsie predominantly black and working-class neighborhood as a conscious decision mm-hmm wonder why they chose that place well absolutely well done everybody these should be immediately seized Conant sorry to step on oh no I mean that's exactly what we're talking about I mean our friends Bill DeBlasio who's been always playing a radical leftist for the past um did come out like de Blasio his campaign mode it is been fun to watch yes you know came out and said that he was you know basically threatened Con Ed with a public take over the company if they can't get themselves together and in DC we're also looking at another one of these private electricity corporations now we've already talked a lot about the nightmare that is PG and E but I really wanted to take a moment to talk about the devastation and the problems that have come from the private ownership of you our public utilities system in the United States so they're over 70 percent of household energy consumption comes from private sources in the United States that has not always been in the case in the 80s and 90s there was a huge rush for privatization and the problem that comes with privatization is that you have one massive inequities as Michael was just talking about in practice and to the profit motive is always creating hiccups in these services so you know in the case of PG&E obviously to hold on to their monopoly they have to lobby and spend ten million dollars a year to be able to afford lobbyists we're a company that was owned by the city would not necessarily have that tension and when we're talking about moving towards a green new deal in dealing with the ecological effects of climate change our energy consumption is going to be the number one way that we start to deal with that problem so currently only 17% of the United States electricity comes from renewables we obviously need to be moving towards 95 to 100 percent in the near future that's going to be very difficult to do if you're dealing with private boards not only not only is public are publicly owned utilities city owned utilities better for democratic control they also tend to be dramatically cheaper publicly in and 32 out of 48 states where both public and private electric systems are in existence 32 are cheaper than the overall 48 so it actually tends to be significantly cheaper just looking at one example Winter Park Florida which was able to wrestle after a long fight with their privately owned utility system was able to wrestle it into public control now they're or the city is getting back forty eight million dollars in general revenue which not only goes to the electrical grid but it also helps support city services and the municipality function and residents of Winter Park Florida are paying twelve percent less than their neighbors Texas is another great example of this in the nineteen nineteen nineteen ninety nine our good friend George Bush deregulated to the Texas electrical system and that was supposed to create competition and competition would start kicking in competition will start kicking exactly I'm sure toss out ideas got drones and got drones and got blah blah blah um there's not a single thing Joe Rogan that's too cool I was actually doing George Bush Dave Rubin but Joe Rogan may be a little too close which is sort of like so you're talking Marion Lampson assign really politics is it let's working together if George Bush was president right now he would go on Joe Rogan's a hundred percent but in Texas eighty five percent of residents get their electricity from the deregulated market sorry what he'd be really good at they eighty five percent of residents get through electricity through the deregulated market while the fifteen percent that are still on the unregulated markets are on the regulated markets including cities like Austin Texas which owns their own electricity and San Antonio which also owns our electricity pay significantly less than people who have privately held electric companies and this is a significant tension as we start to want to transform our electrical system not only is it going to be much more difficult to create a green system under a privately held company which is always trying to squeeze out as many profits as possible the amount of failure in infrastructure and privately held companies is horrifying the human cost and PG&E is very significant and that comes from the fact that PG&E in California is always trying to pay out their stockholders and corporate salaries compared to publicly owned companies which are able to take their revenue and invest in green energy it's not a surprise that many of the parts of the country that are leading in green energy are areas where their public system if their electricity system is publicly controlled you know and lastly just to hit home what Michael was saying at the beginning not only when we talk about public electricity and power for cities we're talking about the effects of climate change but we also need to talk about how those are produced in the direct effects of energy production in the United States that means coal plants and typically what happens with coal plants across the country as they are situated in poor black minority communities if we are able to take this system under public control we can put Democratic POW pressure on these organizations now that's not saying that just you know putting it in under city control by itself will do it but it's going to be far more responsive than the current system where people who are just searching for endless profit are willing to promote the earth choke out the individuals in their in their community and constantly fail to deliver reliable service at a fair price excellent Sam Harris was just talking about ideas and he was smeared as anti-muslim actually to be honest to George Bush's resume I don't want to smear george w bush he came out right after September 11th and said faces like leave Muslims alone and Islam is a religion of peace look saying we're gonna get we're gonna police I'm just cool it with him with a rhetoric okay but look I know what more Sam wants for bombing like six different countries simultaneously and people have nothing to do with it but because I'm not going up on national television and saying that Islam is the mother lode of bad ideas this Golden Girls trust fund babies having a conniption why don't you take a chill pill Sam scientific data can't be racist actually if you look at the miss measure of man I read a third of an assignment love before passing out drunk actually sorted all of a sudden we can't talk about in the and earth all DNA anymore you mean like the guys in the Budweiser commercials or the Geico ads Jesus Christ why do people like this guy what a pain in the ass you know that's actually that was what made George W Bush so likable was that there was a part of his personality where you really did feel like he'd probably bully Sam Harris and it would be cool yeah that was why he was cool that was why people like George W Bush he was drunkenly dancing at the funeral for that Dallas cop that was yeah well I get really come on Michelle come on oh good candy wow you're gonna be the only one dancing up just get it slick so we just announced a new drone program and packet that we fit somehow like Sam is calling him to wine cuz you could see like with Obama just play I think what Sam misses is that we need to build bridges in order to deal with the problem and then it would just be like somehow George Bush should be like so we just would just set off a brand new drone Pakistan a program in Pakistan but I'm guessing you have a problem I didn't say something about a thought experiment on national television in order to encourage Yahoo's to harass people who own 7-elevens go ahead Sam bother me with your nonsense it's actually a great character just George def you push arrest George W Bush do you think with Sam Eretz Sam I can just go to John Bolton if I want to hear about somebody talk about nuking Muslim community yeah and at least she's a little bit animated it doesn't think that having a 14 year olds view of religion makes him a great intellect shut up Sam you go what you don't have your argument with yank you got it I was really stimulant I really loved the way he used the nuclear footballs thought experiment to say what you already said in the beginning but pretend it was a hypothetical so you didn't have the balls to back up your actual position well done Sam alright folks we're gonna go to the post game become a member of TMDs patreon.com slash team vs this way this whole thing happens is episode 100 I appreciate all of you I just want to say really briefly next week I'll be on the hill for the second time a crystal ball so you can check out my first appearance over there I did a great interview with a channel called rebel base on YouTube with a guy named Greg Belvedere we talked about ecology socialism psychedelics it was really interesting a little bit of a change of pace and I was also on nofilter with Ana Kasparian the great Ana Kasparian one of our really good friends and regulars she'll obviously be on TMDs again soon but I want to let people know of course if you haven't yet check out wolfe bros me and woz once a week on the bomb feet on black opinions matter just letting everybody know all the different things of course literary hangover with matt get it and become patron today for some reason you haven't yet subscribed we've crossed our first 60,000 subscribers let's get past 3,000 patrons in the fall let's get to 100,000 subscribers on youtube in the fall so we can keep spreading this far and wide thank you for all the super chat donations thank you for taking us through 100 episodes I appreciate all of you I met Samm numbered on my return to i-24 we're playing it and talking about it among many other things and the post game see there

24 thoughts on “TMBS -100- Cornel West & Rogan + Fmr. Brazil Foreign Minister Celso Amorim ft. Brooke Thomas

  1. You cannot hear shit Brooke is saying period why didn't you fix that?? I love Brooke. I'm a paying member, she sounded like she was talking,omg through a sock.

  2. @1:08:00 you guys need to learn what a sovereign government can do for it's people. One reason Dilma-Rousseff allowed middle/upper class anxiety to hold reign and fuel Bolsanaro was because PT were not using the government deficit spending power to build schools and other facilities at the rate demanded by the emerging lower-middle class numbers. If you want to pull people up out of poverty you need to build schools, houses, new airports(!), and other civic facilities they can use instead of crowding the existing facilities. No taxes will ever "pay for" this, they can't, it has to be a big deficit spending program. The elites will complain about that (because they are fiscal deficit hawk numb-skulls) but they will not be scared by it. When Lefties like Lula actually bother to sit down and learn MMT, there will be no stopping them alleviate poverty for damn good. PT (disastrously) let neoliberal IMF austerity deficit hawk thinking spoil their expansion of the middle class.

  3. I'm Brazilian and I'm always a bit bothered by this angle that some people related to PT (incl Lula) tend to adopt, that our problems are somehow caused by some sort of intrinsic prejudice of the Brazilian middle class. I mean, it took literally jailing the candidate polling first, not to mention a LOT of other manipulative stuff way before and during the elections, and even so bolsonaro only won by a slight margin. It was not by popular demand.

  4. Hey Brooke Thomas: my thought for you is we can do better by thinking with more nuance before we speak, you say racism "… is America…", but that's wrong. That sort of language pours gasoline on the fire of reactionary far right and IDW culture. Instead you could say what you actually mean, something like: "Racism is deeply ingrained in the USA, and it cannibalizes and clouds the good in our society".

  5. Mikes take on West is very michaely and long winded. It’s spot on though. West has amazing takes and cool ways of engaging with people.

  6. Brook thomas sucks. She is the dumbest tyt host. She ALWAYS misses the point of whatever is being analyzed. Watch her take on Marian Williamson on Rubin; I am not a fan of MW but Brook’s critique of her is mindblowingly stupid.

  7. Can the US defund right wing mendacity in Israel government policies without being accused of anti-Semitism

  8. Can you, or someone, point out the potentials (good and bad) of a national power agency. Not sure if the framing of my question is correct.

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