Problem-Solving Heroism – Tom Suozzi | The Open Mind

Problem-Solving Heroism – Tom Suozzi | The Open Mind


HEFFNER: I’m Alexander Heffner,
your host on The Open Mind. Hometown heroes. We want to believe in the
integrity of our locally elected congressional
office holders, representative government, and
the promise of its leadership. My own New York Third
District Congressman Tom Suozzi, who previously
served as mayor of Glen Cove, New York from ‘94 to
2001 and as Nassau County Executive from ‘02 to 2009 is
here with me today. Modeling a courageous,
constructive way forward, an escape from party
dogma an intransigence, Suozzi is vice chair of
the Bipartisan Problem Solvers Caucus, a group
of roughly 22 Republicans and 22 Democrats committed to
working across party lines to try and find
real solutions. The caucus
meets regularly, and recently engaged with
the White House and its staff to consider
issues, namely healthcare, infrastructure,
and tax reform. Thank you Congressman
for being here today. SUOZZI: Alexander, so happy to
be on your show today. Thanks for having me. HEFFNER: This Problem
Solvers Caucus can really leverage the positive
pro-social political capital that’s
left in this country. How are you
going to do it? SUOZZI: It’s not easy, I’ll tell
you that to start with. The system is designed
against bipartisanship. But we’ve got about
forty-some-odd people right now that
are committed, equally Democrats
and Republicans, committed to trying to
work together to get to yes, to try and find
answers to solve problems. You know, there’s
people in Congress that, you know, the Tea
Party for example, they want to get to know. They want to try
and block things, the Freedom Caucus. We want to be an
antidote to that. We want to get to yes to
solve problems that exist. The healthcare debate
right now is a great example of that, where the
Republicans decided we’ll just go this alone, we’ll do it
by ourselves, and it failed. And now it’s resurrecting
itself as we speak, and we’re saying no, you
can’t do it as one party. It’s not gonna work. Let’s get Democrats and
Republicans to work together. Let’s all give a little
bit but try and get to an answer that actually
helps the American people. HEFFNER: Those 44 folks,
are they primarily first or second-termers? SUOZZI: No, there are
some people that have been around for a long time and
there’s a lot of freshmen, and, and, and sophomores,
but there are people that have been around
for a long, long time… HEFFNER: There’s also been a
Civility Caucus too, right? SUOZZI: Well
everybody, you know, the freshmen class signed
a Civility Pledge that we would, you know, treat
each other with respect throughout this
process, and I, and I’m a freshman
and I’m finding that I’m happily surprised
at the talent that’s in the House of
Representatives, and it’s not this crazy everybody
can’t stand each other. I just think that the
structure of the system is such right now that
it works against people working together, and the
people are sick of it. The public is sick of it.
They’re sick of politicians. They’re sick of politics. They’re sick of finger-pointing
and blame games. They just want us to get
something actually ran a campaign, my campaign
slogan was “Suozzi gets it done.” So I’m here,
I want to get something done now and it’s not easy in
this environment, so we have to battle …
I’m constantly working, for example, to try and
build relationships with people on the other
side of the aisle, just to get to know them. I get up at 6 o’clock in
the morning and I go to a 6:30 work, workout class
that’s run by a Republican congressman from
Oklahoma who’s a former MMA fighter and
a wrestler. It’s half Democrats,
half Repu… I’m like out of breath the whole time. These guys are all
younger than me. But uh, you know, just
to get to know people. Sometimes I go to the
non-denominational prayer breakfast, and these
are all the southern evangelicals, and
I get in there, I say I’m a, I’m a
Catholic Democrat from New York, they’re like
[LAUGHS] that’s funny. [LAUGHS] But it’s a good
way to get to know people. HEFFNER: Right. Well, we have to get to
this point where we’re able to use diplomacy
to, what I’ve said, disagreeably agree. You know, and I don’t
mean through hatchets and knives, but
through discourse, and it’s challenging but
if you think back to those great deliberative
bodies, the Constitutional Convention, the Second
Continental Congress, there was a range
of perspective, disparate views,
and they reconciled. Later there was a hugely
disunifying event that allowed us to reunify, but
how do you get to yes, that was the question. How do
you get to yes? Where have you found areas of
potentially fruitful compromise? SUOZZI: So before I get to
that, if I can. HEFFNER: Yes please. SUOZZI: I would like to
just talk about why do we have this problem in this
country, why are we so divided. And I don’t think it’s
’cause people are so different than
they used to be. It’s not just because
of cable television, people, you know, going
into their echo chamber and listening to people that
agree with themselves. A lot of it has to do
with the fact that of the 435 members of the House
of Representatives, most of the seats, 390,
maybe 400, are safe seats. They’re guaranteed either
gonna be Democratic no matter what or they’re gonna
be Republican no matter what. And as a result, you
can’t lose the election in the general election. It’s impossible to lose
the general election. But you could lose,
possibly, the primary. And nobody votes
in the primary. So if a Democrat’s running
and they can only lose in a primary, they’re gonna play
to the far left of the party because they
can only lose a primary, and only 10 percent of the
people vote in a primary. In the Republican side,
you can only lose in a primary, you’re gonna play
to the far right of your party, and only 10 percent of
the people vote in a primary. So as a result you have,
there’s 400 of the 435 members of the House of
Representatives playing to their far right or far left
sides and instead of trying to come
to the middle, and I give the example all
the time of Eric Cantor. Eric Cantor was like
the number three person in the Republican House
of Representatives, and he said let’s do
immigration reform. It’s time to do
immigration reform. We should really
figure this out. And he got a primary from
the far right and he lost. He’s one of the most
powerful Republicans in the country and
he lost a primary. So that scared
everybody away, and everybody sees that
nobody’s participating in these primaries
except for people at the, at the far edges
of the periphery. HEFFNER: And I urge
our viewers to go to TheOpenMind.com, check
out our programs with John Opdycke of
Open Primaries. We’ve been focusing on
this for three and a half, going on four
years, SUOZZI: Right. HEFFNER: And folks
who viewed our program probably think we
sound like a broken record insofar as here is the crisis,
where are the solutions? Are the folks who were
represented in that 45 person contingent,
are they more nimble, more flexible,
more pliable, more comfortable to
compromise and why are they more
comfortable to compromise? SUOZZI: They’re, I think
because they’re basically good people it
starts with, that they want to
do the right thing. They want to solve
problems and they’re willing to show the
courage and take the heat that they’ll get from
their own party as well as the opposition. You know,
everybody, you know, they say, you know,
what happens when you’re in the middle
of the road. You get run over. So you have to
be, it takes guts, HEFFNER: Right. SUOZZI: To do this stuff. So for me, you know,
I’m trying to do this and I’ve got my friends
in the progressive left of the Democratic Party
saying you’re crazy. Why are you
talking to these guys? They’re no good, they’re
bums. Don’t even talk to them. Well at the same time,
the Republicans are saying Suozzi’s a Democrat,
let’s bury this guy. So you know, you get both
sides coming at you for daring to talk
about this, so it’s, it’s challenging
from that perspective. The, so these people have guts
to do it in the first place. They’re all, most of
them I should say, are more in these seats
that could go either way, you know, that their,
their constituency is demanding that they
try and solve problems, and it’s smart politically
to try and serve their, their constituency. That’s why gerrymandering
is such a major problem in our country. I’m one of, of
37 members of, or 38 members of the
House of Representatives that has signed a, an amicus
brief to the Supreme Court that, on October 3rd is
arguing that there can no longer be
partisan gerrymandering. Because that
would … that would, if we didn’t have partisan
gerrymandering in America, it would completely
change this whole dynamic, and it would force people
to be more willing to compromise and, and
try and find solutions somewhere in the middle. HEFFNER: I was thinking
when you made that comment, you made me
laugh about the wrestling analogy in being in
the middle of the road and the plight of the centrist,
or center-left, center-right. I was thinking about
the photo that hangs in the hallway as you
enter the studio. I mentioned this to
Secretary Grimes who was with us recently, of
a program we did with Senator Sanders,
the content of which, you know, this
is pre-campaign, would be wholly relevant
to any discussion today about genuine economic
concerns of folks, and while you can
disagree on prescriptions, you know, thus far when
it comes to healthcare, when it comes to tax
reform or infrastructure, those three issues on
which this President wanted to take command, there’s
been a missing in action. SUOZZI: I was invited
with a group of uh, 15 members of Congress to
meet with the President and some of his
senior staff. Some Problem Solvers,
some Blue Dog Democrats, some Republicans
from Problem Solvers, uh, some other
folks, you know, that are not affiliated with
either, either of those groups. And it’s, the sense I
got was that the President wants to try and
do … you know, I don’t agree with the
President on a lot of things, I want to make
that very clear from the get-go, but the President
wants to try and negotiate agreements to
get things done, and he’s got some talented
people on his senior staff that are around him, that
I think want to do the same thing, but I don’t
think he appreciates the complexity of politics and
governing and legislation. And I’m concerned that
there are people on his team that are stuck in one
extreme of the Republican Party that are trying to
just drive their agenda and they’re controlling
the legislative process. So the president
wants to disrupt things, you know, that’s,
that’s what we’ve seen. HEFFNER: So
representing our district, right, natives of, of
Jericho, Glen Cove, SUOZZI: Yeah. HEFFNER: What are tangible
results that you would hope, national
infrastructure for instance, we were
victims together of Sandy. We understand
that viscerally. What are examples of
constructive approaches that could be federal
legislation that helps people in New York
and around the country? SUOZZI: Well we started
out in the Problem Solvers saying we’re gonna do,
discuss infrastructure and tax reform and try and find
compromise there, and we ended up
shifting gears and went to healthcare when we saw the
whole thing fall apart, and we found a compromise
that said the main thing we need to do, and this
was really the Democrats driving this with
some Republicans, we have to stabilize
the individual market. There are 330
million people in America. 160 million people get
their health insurance from their employers. 70 million get their
insurance from Medicare. 50 million get their
insurance from Medicaid. About 25 or 30 million
people remain uninsured, and there’s
about 21 million, 22 million people in
the individual market. The individual market is where
everything’s blowing up. The premiums go
through the roof, the insurers are pulling
out of the marketplace. This is where
all the angst, most of the angst is
coming from as far as the instability in
the marketplace. So we said as a group,
Democrats and Republicans agreed on this, we need to as a
priority stabilize the individual market
through certifying that there’s definitely
gonna be cost-sharing reductions, that this is gonna
be under the Congress, and this would actually help
reduce premiums in those areas. As a compromise, the
Republicans said well we’ll agree with this but
we want to get rid of the medical device tax and
we want to change the employer mandate from 50
employees to 500 employees. Well we talked to the
people that wrote the Affordable Care Act
in the first place and they said
you know what? Employers will continue to
give the insurance anyway ’cause you have to
in America today, you have to give this
insurance if you want to remain competitive
in the marketplace. Very few people got
insurance because of the employer mandate, so we
gave, we gave on that. Uh, but this
was a compromise. We started to see
movement in the Senate, for them to agree
with what we’re doing, Lamar Alexander and,
and Patty Murray started talking about
bipartisan compromises, especially on the
stabilizing of the individual market, but
it’s being derailed by the efforts right now, by
Cassidy and the group. HEFFNER: Let’s take
infrastructure and tax reform. Where could we find those
areas of common ground? SUOZZI: I think
there’s no question that infrastructure, if the
President had decided to make that his
number one agenda item, this is something Chuck
Schumer said from day one, he could make a deal
with the Republicans, with the, and the
Democrats… HEFFNER: He’d have 60 percent
approval right now. SUOZZI: Right
away, right away, and, and it’s, people are
dying for this in America. We have to recognize
the President resonated with a big swath of Americans
because he spoke to people that have been left behind by
globalization and technology. People that are just
not making it in America today, they’re,
as I said before, there’s 330 million
people in America. There’s only 105
million full-time jobs, which makes sense when
you take out the seniors, you take out
the young people, you take out the
stay at home parents, you take out the
part-time workers, you take out the
unemployed and disabled, there’s a 105
million full-time jobs. Of those 105
million full-time jobs, 59 million people
make less than 50 thousand dollars a year. 86
million, out of 105 million, 86 million make less than 75
thousand dollars a year. No wonder everybody’s,
thinks that we’re elites in New York or in
California or in Washington D.C. that
are out of touch. There’s this whole
swath of Americans that are not making enough money to
make it in America anymore. HEFFNER: That’s why
Sanders resonated. SUOZZI: Infrastru…
right, that’s why San… and why Trump
resonated as well. HEFFNER: Right, they both
resonated for that reason. SUOZZI: They
both resonated. HEFFNER: I’m sorry. SUOZZI: So infrastructure, HEFFNER: Right. SUOZZI: Is an opportunity
not only to fix our decaying infrastructure in
this country from sewers and roads and bridges and
tunnels and airports and ports but it’s an
opportunity to create economic growth and jobs
that pay enough money that people can afford to make
enough money, and that… HEFFNER: How can
you and the congressman from Oklahoma you
mentioned and the… SUOZZI: Well he’s not in
the Problem Solvers. The guy from Oklahoma
is not going to help with the Problem Solvers. He’s out there. [LAUGHS] HEFFNER: [LAUGHS]
Well it’s important to be candid in, in
that respect. SUOZZI: Yeah. HEFFNER: The folks who
can commit to solutions, how can you guys collectively,
guys and gals, congressmen, congresswomen,
from Vermont, and Senator
Sanders from Vermont, address the economic
abandonment that crosses all boundaries
and borders. SUOZZI: That’s the key to
success for our country. The Democrats came out
with a message in the beginning of
August and said listen, we’re gonna, we’re gonna
start a new message and a new platform. We’re gonna
talk about a better deal, better jobs, better
wages, a better future. And people are like well, that’s
what we should be doing. That’s what the Democrats
should be talking about. We’ve lost that central
message of what we need to be focused on, and we
saw throughout the whole summer, everybody was
pulled away from that message because of
the crazy events in Charlottesville and the
President’s response to it. HEFFNER: Right, that’s true. I
would submit to you that we, you know, we associate
with the Square Deal or the New Deal,
our Roosevelt, SUOZZI: Yeah. HEFFNER: Lions
of New York, my objection to this,
to the notion of better is that it was not
sufficiently rooted in our history, in the part, you
know in the Democratic Party’s history and what I
allude to now as American history, and maybe you
and Secretary Grimes and Senator Schumer and company can
embellish on that. SUOZZI: We’ve got to embellish
on that, it’s got, this is.. HEFFNER: Too generic. SUOZZI: Everything’s a process.
You know, you have to build, I wro… I wrote an op-ed
piece where I talked about how my goal is we need to
create five million new 80,000 dollar jobs in America.
I told you before 86 million, HEFFNER: Right. SUOZZI: Out of 105 million
full-time jobs make 75 thousand dollars or less.
So I set the 80 thousand as, as the goal and 5 million
as a reasonable number. And everything we do, you
want to do infrastructure, your President
wants to do tax reform, you know,
corporate tax reform? You want to do,
you want to do, changes in, in protections and
regulations that affect our
lives? What are you gonna do to
create 5 million 80,000 dollar jobs in
this country? Right now there are 6
million jobs in America that are unfilled
because we don’t have sufficiently trained people. You and I and everybody
else in politics and public policy has been
pushing college college, college for 20 years,
and we should continue to do that, STEMs. Science,
technology, engineering, and mathematics. The more you
learn, the more you earn. But 60 percent of
Americans don’t go to college, and we have
poo-pooed the idea of people going to trade
schools and apprenticeship programs and going
to, in New York State, BOCES. We need to start pushing
skilled positions again for people to become
electricians and plumbers and carpenters and welders. I
had three welders in my office, I’m sorry for
going on about this, but I had three
welders in my office. One guy was
22, one was 29, and the other
was 32 years old, and I asked them why
did you become welders. And they were almost
sheepish about it, they were guilty almost,
they were like well, I didn’t do well in school
and my father was mad at me, and my, my grandfather
said he knew somebody and you know, I became a welder.
I said well how’s it going? He says oh, I said well how much
money did you make last year? The 22-year-old
made $99,000 dollars. The 29-year-old
made $120,000 dollars, and the 32 year-old
made $140,000 dollars. They get up early
in the morning, they drive an
hour to go to work, they take every
job they can get. But we don’t have
enough welders in America. And we need to figure out
how to start getting back to this basic message
that people have been left behind by technology
and globalization. We don’t want to
change our standards of protecting people
with worker safety. We don’t want to change our
environmental protections. And we want to make people
have better lives with insurance and
with pensions, and we want people
to have better wages. But part of the path
to getting there is encouraging these type
of skills in the global marketplace for jobs that can be
done right here at home. HEFFNER: Well if anyone
just listened to you, Congressman, they would
have heard authenticity in your storytelling,
in your message. So as we were
discussing off-camera, I have a proposition. When it comes to tax
reform or infrastructure, we need to enlist the
media collectively to be activist, not
ideologically. Constructively. And you know how Crossfire
was disbanded, rightfully so, SUOZZI: Yeah, yeah. HEFFNER: Because,
at a certain point, it was just
inane nonsense. SUOZZI: Yeah,
yelling at each other. HEFFNER: Right, which you don’t
hear here on PBS stations. We, we need, we need
an amazing race to legislative success. Whether it is public
television or commercial, we need to see the sausage
making up close and personal, enlist
a congressman, a senator, officers at
think tanks that might have opposite
objectives but together, a day in the life, and do a
series like that for days or
weeks. Not the fabricated or
publicity stunt style events where they
are driven as gotcha questions, but if we had
that kind of leadership in public media and in
the fourth estate, we would earn our
integrity back as journalists, to the extent
that it’s been voided, and we would help
engender or facilitate the camaraderie in
your caucus. SUOZZI: I like that idea. I like the idea, two
parts of what you said. One is almost like a reality TV
show that you’re talking about, HEFFNER: Yeah. SUOZZI: To follow a day
in the life type of thing, which people I think need
to understand what this life is like, you know,
everybody hates politicians. They’re sick
of politicians. See, they’re genuinely good
people trying to do the right
thing. It’s just they’re being pulled
apart by different structural
factors. That’s, so one,
the reality idea, but something else you
said that I think we should add to it is
this amazing race idea, the idea of a competition.
Who’s got the better ideas, who’s gonna get
the thing done, who’s gonna win the race
to solve the problem to make people’s lives better?
It should be a competition. That’s what democracy
is supposed to be. It’s supposed to be a compet…
it’s like capitalism. Capitalism only works
when there’s competition. Democracy only works
when there’s competition. I’ve got a
better idea than you. I’ve got a better way to
pay for it than you do. I can get it done more,
quickly than you can. I’ll help more
people than you. Let’s compete, HEFFNER: Right. SUOZZI: In the
battle of ideas, HEFFNER: Absolutely. SUOZZI: As to how to make
people’s lives better. That’s why our primary
system is not working, because there’s not
enough competition ’cause it’s a small little
group of people. We had more
people in the process, there’d be more
competition and it would force the politicians to be more
accountable to the public. HEFFNER: And after Senator
McCain went like this to the shock and astonishment of
that polarization complex, there,
there would have been, and there still is
a peak interest, and Senator McCain’s one
of the most courageous political office holders in the
history of this country. He has nothing
left to lose. SUOZZI: That’s for sure. HEFFNER: Get
him in a room, I don’t know, with Pat Leahy or
pragmatic, thoughtful, SUOZZI: I’m in,
sign me up. HEFFNER: And a
congressional version of that, but it needs
leverage in order to compete in this
Twitter clickbait culture. SUOZZI: It’s got to be, it’s got
to be interesting. HEFFNER: But
it can be sexy. SUOZZI: It’s got to be, well it
is. It’s very interest, it’s an
interest, I love my job. I
love my job, it’s a hard job, I don’t like
being away from my, my wife and son
who’s at home, we have two
other kids away, uh, I don’t like that part. It’s
long hours. It’s a lot of ups and downs
along the way, but I love it. And I think that if people
really knew what was going on, they’d love it too.
Public policy, public debate, public life is
something for everybody. A good thing that’s
happening in America today is that more people are
paying attention now than ever before. I first
ran for office in 1991. I lost my first race for mayor
of Glen Cove in 1991. I was 29 years old. I have never seen the engagement
that I see right now. Some people,
’cause they like Trump, some people ‘cause they’re
terrified of the President. But regardless, people are
engaged and when people are engaged, the system
will ultimately work. We just need more people
engaged in the process. Your idea may be a
good way to do that. HEFFNER: The, and we need
the right kind of civic engagement that is
pulling people together, as much as
feasibly possible. You’ve described the
systemic problems that have exacerbated
the disconnect. How can voters in and
constituents across this nation, beyond what
are understood as the traditional apparatus
of town hall meetings, writing your congressperson,
how can they, SUOZZI: They gotta … HEFFNER: Collectively, SUOZZI: They’ve got to sign
up, they’ve got to get involved. Sign up and
volunteer on a campaign. See what it’s
like for real. You know, run for
office yourself. Get engaged in
the process. It can be a very
fulfilling… I don’t have time ’cause I’m
busy with my, my family, I’m
busy with my job, I’m busy with all the
things coming at me from the media, the whole thing
stinks and people have to recognize, there are
people in this country that benefit from
the status quo. They like it. They like the, the, the
instability of what’s going on in this
country right now. They like that
nothing gets done, because they’re benefiting from
the status quo the way it is
now. They don’t want
it to change. There are people that
spend a lot of money to encourage us not
to like politics, who don’t want
anything to get done. HEFFNER: Isn’t that
why we’re not gonna see genuine tax reform,
because the system is incentivizing the wrong kind of
economic policy now? SUOZZI: This
is the battle. This is the
battle of public life. There are people that want
it to stay the way it is now ’cause they like
it the way it is now, and there are people that
want to get something done to change and make
everybody’s life better. That’s the battle, that’s the
fight, that’s why politics
matters. HEFFNER: On
those two issues, we come back to them,
infrastructure and tax reform, where is
potentially the light of compromise, public,
private partnerships? We talk about them often in the
context of infrastructure. We’ve discussed an
infrastructure bank where private companies can assist in
facilitating public projects. Where has there been any
compromise so far on this issue? SUOZZI: The, it hasn’t been
there yet, at all. The President would be
smart to tie the two together, tax reform and
infrastructure. Republican… HEFFNER: How, how can
you do that? SUOZZI: Just to make it as part
of the negotiation as it’s going forward. And what the President
needs to recognize is there’s got to be public
investment in infrastructure. He’s pushing
private private private. There’s got to be
public investment in infrastructure for
it to actually work. It can be
public-private as well, but there has to be a
big part of public in the public-private
part that goes on. HEFFNER: And tax reform,
what would you like to see accomplished? SUOZZI: Tax
reform, you know, I’m, even President Obama talked
about corporate tax reform. In America, we want our, our
workers to make good wages. We want them to
have health insurance, we want them to
have, pensions. We want them
to have safety. We want them to have
environmental protections, and we’re competing in a
world where people don’t have any of that stuff. We’re in a global
marketplace where they don’t have bad wages and
they don’t have worker safety and they don’t have
environmental controls. So when we’re competing, we are
at a competitive disadvantage. We don’t want to have a
race to the bottom to become more like these
other countries that don’t have these
worker protections, that don’t have
environmental protections, that don’t have good
wages for their employees. We want them to
be more like us, we don’t want to
be more like them, so that’s what this whole trade
fight is about, or part of it
is. So where’s our
competitive advantage? Well we, have from
sea to shining sea, we have our
natural resources. We have the rule of law better
than most places in the world. People want to do business
here ’cause you can, can count on the rule of
law if somebody breaks the rules, they’re
gonna get in trouble. But we have to have more
skilled workers in order to compete in the
global marketplace as a competitive advantage,
and we have to look at corporate tax reform
because our corporate taxes are much too high
when compared to the rest of the world. HEFFNER: What must we
demand from our companies, SUOZZI: The companies
have to create jobs in the process. It can’t be that there’s
corporate tax reform so you can give more
dividends or more stock buy-backs or so you can
give more executive pay. You’ve got to create jobs. We need 5 million $80,000
dollar jobs in America. HEFFNER: That’s,
that’s the criteria. SUOZZI: So we need
to figure out how can corporate tax reform
result in job creation at decent wages that make life
in America better? Otherwise… HEFFNER: And
the system as it is now. SUOZZI: ‘Cause the corporations
are doing fine. They’re doing fine. HEFFNER: Yes. SUOZZI: They got all, got
those loopholes and all this, they, they
don’t need more, more help for
the corporations. We need more help to
get them to locate in the United States of America
where it will create jobs that pay sufficient wages
so people can live the American dream. We don’t need anything
to help the wealthy. We… HEFFNER: Well, it
would make sense to have a combination of reducing
or eliminating all those loopholes and reducing
the corporate tax rate. If you do those things
simultaneously… SUOZZI: Gotta do ’em
together, right. HEFFNER: Congressman,
a pleasure. SUOZZI: Thank you, Alexander.
Thank you so much. HEFFNER: And thanks to
you in the audience. I hope you join us again next
time for a thoughtful, constructive excursion
into the world of ideas. Until then,
keep an open mind. Please visit The
Open Mind website at Thirteen.org/OpenMind to
view this program online, or to access over
1,500 other interviews. And do check us out on
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on future programming.

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