New Nationalism(s)

New Nationalism(s)



hi everybody thank you very much for joining us today this is a talk that I am quite very excited about is on the topic of a new nationalism and the rise of complex and not-so-pretty politics in throughout the entire world we have here's some amazing people to make the conversation actually a little bit uncomfortable that would be the idea we have a distinct about the v-neck who is the moderator and it's a curator based in Vienna director of modern era Lidia sign up us who is a curator base in Istanbul Nikolas Schaffhausen formerly based in Vienna now the director of the Fogo Island project I like whatever I say wrong please correct me and culture is Union Angelica cigar from author lead group amazing amazing artists so stanca is the moderator and I very much look forward to what you have to say all of you today thank you hello good afternoon it's my pleasure to start the conversation about the nationalism new nationalism I'm here together with if I go from my left-right with Angelica cigar and cordial Asian from Otto lead group Nicolas Schaffhausen the moment strategic director of Fogo Island arts of short for serf asked in from Canada and then Zeynep is a founder of Bihar in Istanbul and also a curator of the actual Turkish Pavilion in the in Venice Biennale at the moment so the purpose of our conversation is to reflect on the new old nationalism and of course populism even new neo-fascism that we witness today not only in Europe but all around the world of course nationalism is nothing new but what is new are the circumstances the circumstances that shape whatever we call nationalism or neo nationalism so the circumstances in Europe and in other places of the world are rapidly changing and of course we we know that the key cause of the changes is global capitalism but there are of course also other things that somehow are again the results of this global neoliberalism in the first place this is the mild current crisis and we can go also further in the recent history we can go to the September 11th that caused many problems to the people that were have been defined as a terrorist after it so the people that are mostly of the Muslim religions so the vocabulary in contemporary politics changed a lot so the ideology of neoliberal politics the key word until recently was open borders so today we hear a lot about the protectionism about sovereign ISM and about safety so these are the again the new old words that somehow defined what the frame that we can discussed nationalism so the nationalism of course today has different phases we know the nationalism in Europe I'm coming from Eastern Europe from Slovenia so in the former Yugoslavia data there are many changes so if you go for example to scope here which is the most astonishing places at the moment in the Balkans you will see many new nationalist monuments so Skopje became new brand in terms of you know attracting the tourists with those monuments and also they covered modernist architecture modernist building facets the buildings that were built in times of socialism with classic cystic facet so in Europe of course breaks it is another another issue that is again something else that here in in the continental Europe we'd talk about in terms of nationalism in UK the discussion of nationalism relates very much also to the people of color so the discourse is different there and if we go for example to Asia again I was recently reading about new gulag in China where 1 million vehicles and other Muslims are now undergoing ray education programs so the word nationalism in Europe and elsewhere is very often today accompanies accompanied with the word fascism and we are discussing a lot whether this word is too heavy to define what is going on today but also those who would not agree to use such a heavy word would certainly agree that on other issues that are related to fascism and this is nationalism populism and xenophobia so of course the debate our debate will tackle more the question of art institution and art so how all this new situation made impact on our work and what can we do what can be done so we start I propose we start our conversation again the way I introduced you all should we go opposite from you the artist so this is democratic panel we will have a conversation but if there are agencies from your side please just ask just interrupt us so it's very open debate so I would like to start them with Angelique but I would first introduce very shortly the Otto lead group the Otto lead group was founded in 2002 and consists of the artists and theories of the Angelica saga and correlation who live and work in London there are going research based or the research based collaboration draws from a wide range of resources and materials that support intergenerational dialogue with other artists and thinkers the group also functions as curators on the platform at the Otto lead collective this visual art duo work with moving images installations with archival film video photography performance curation and publication their work is developed according to shifting Syria of long term research based projects exploring the legacies potentialities of proposals broadly informed by architecture the Bandung conference the experimental theorem trinket content continental ISM cybernetic science fiction and caplet Autzen the term Auto leet maybe I'll leave this to you later if somebody is interested to go deep deeper in explanation of your work so I would I would just start with a question to you both so you recently opened a large scale exhibition that elite group Zener Genesis in varna museum in I drove in height horror where you took as a point of the departure Octavia Butler's text Skinner Genesis Saxena means strange or alien and Genesis is becoming and your work in these terms relates to science fiction in human and my creation so my question would be why Butler's writing is so important for you why is so relevant today well Octavia Butler is an extraordinary figure for us for many reasons firstly I'd suggest to everybody here if you haven't read any Octavia Octavia Butler and you have read Ursula Le Guin or other sort of white science fiction writers I would urge you to read Octavia Butler because she brings a whole other energy into and politics into science fiction and that is of the inhuman all that which is considered inhuman and she looks at apocalypse deeply and pre and actually predicted she predicts kind of what is happening now she predicted it in the 70s in the 80s the term xenogenesis means to kind of is strange yourself and grow I suppose at the same time become alien become estranged and I think the question of the present in relation to this easel is a very mean you know one can talk about it for a long time but you know when we talk about fascism we are not just talking about fascism in the way that we understood it before are we really we're talking about it in a very it's appearing in a very different way now it's um it's actually kind of like open opens oh it's it's being organized and run by people who are openly stupid and openly and are openly mobsters it's kind of like the return of the East India Company but without any of the charm but openly and you know there is a sense that this world is as it is is ending you know if it's a white patriarchal hegemonic power that has run everything till now which it has it's got to end you know if you leave imperialists and people who've been imperialists alone without having to deal with people of color or women of color or disabled people or you know people who are querying or people who are just struggling to base a society on difference if you are if you if this if imperialists do have you know do not understand that those other people have rights then they will just do it again you know which is what is what is happening you know and I think when it comes to the UK in a city like London one can say that London is is is a city which has had a long history of multi-ethnic rebellion one could say this is the left in a way you know multi-ethnic rebellion been in place since Shipbuilding started due to the you know enclosure acts and all of that so i think when i when we think about xenogenesis we think about the potential that comes from thinking beyond this world and thinking of this world is an end thinking of the that doesn't mean to abandon the institutions but it certainly means to decolonize them so I think poetics is perhaps the last space of practice although genres have been captured all of the I don't know it feels like everything has been kind of captured so perhaps poetics or as Denis Ferreira DaSilva writes about towards in her text towards the end of the world a black feminist poetics perhaps it's a poetics that we think about as a way to apprehend the idea of the essay stick in our work in our films you know I think the the question of new nationalisms and their relation to art institutions you know that immediately compels us to to to think through the notion that you know Europe has never not been nationalists so instead of or as well as pointing to the novelty of nationalism I think the continuities of nationalism are important and as for me how nationalisms bear on the art institution the institution of the Art Fair is through the structured subordination of the art world that's to say the segregation that structures art world so in Europe at the moment you have this phenomenon of the rediscovery of artists of color so in in Britain a so-called rediscovery so in Britain you have great artists from the 1980s such as Claudette Johnson Claudette Joseph rather you have artists such as Frank Bowling Tate Britain you have these artists who've been working for 20 50 60 years who've all have have their moment 30 40 years later what this suggests is a is a is an unequal integration and a hierarchical structure which is continuous with the Cold War I've been researching a lot on the notion of Cold War containment the Truman Doctrine the 1950s but when I look at the art world inside its I'm not sure we were never not in a cold war because the logics of containment the logics of subordination a part of what explains the excitement around artists of color now why would these artists exclusively included you know why were they excluded in order to be partially included in art history in art surveys in so-called group shows in historical shows why is art history why is art theory why's art practice why's curating taught at the level of unequally integrated hierarchical structured subordination of certain artists from other artists so in you know so my initial notion is to stress the continuity of nationalism and the particular role that plays within art institutions you know of course coming from Britain Britain has its own idioms of neo nationalism you know we don't have Trump we have Reese MOG in Britain near nationalism where's plus force and he speaks in an Italian accent that's the that's the particular malaise of Britain which has formed us and so the question of xenogenesis has to be put in that context a context of you know the particular inflections that Britain brings to what is clearly a global crisis I would characterize this global crisis in the words of the the Neo reactionary thinker Nick land who doesn't use terms such as fascism or populism but speaks in terms of drastically advanced regression drastically advanced regression this is useful because it's a certain kind of diagram a certain kind of political diagram the lets us map a conjuncture in a very general way but we can see examples of drastically advanced regression all the time we can see the combinations of belligerent regressive forces multiplied by computational algorithmic power at a massively multiplied scale that combination of the regressive plus the digitally advanced that's I would say that I would say is what is unique to our time plus of course the the the 11 year timeline that we are living in the timeline given to us by the IPCC who you know we we have to reduce we whoever we are as opposed through reduce that global the global temperature below 1.5 in otherwise as we know the coastal regions of the planets the island nations of the planet and specifically the majority of people in the African continent we'll suffer the consequences of the sixty or seventy corporations whose names we now know who were based in Switzerland in the u.s. in the UK and whose names are very clear and these people are set to destroy the planet and specifically their specific numbers of African peoples who have done the least to cause the catastrophe that we are in so we live in a world I would say of I would say where the challenge for us as artists is to think on an inter scaler level the the we look a lot of the work of the historian of science Gabriel Hecht and in her analysis of the African Anthropocene how the Anthropocene looks from the perspective of the African continent she talks a lot about inter scale of vehicles as a way of narrating these kinds of scales that we have to confront so xenogenesis for us is a way of opening up this dimension of it of a vehicle narrative vehicles image vehicles sonic vehicles which can travel across the scales of the drastically advanced regression that we are now facing thank you very important question of a repetition of you know that these things like fascism and nationalism is actually part of us so it's something probably that we need to discuss as well so we need to probably to come maybe not here but include in our discussion also the aspect of cyber analyzes so and I would I would now give the word to Nicolas Schaffhausen of course I would present you first first I thought about the nape but now as I thought as I mentioned psychoanalysis I said of the the Vienna you know the city which is strongly related to you the city of Freud although we are not talking about him here but still maybe this association to have in our somewhere it's also okay so Nicolas Schaffhausen is a curator director author and editor of numerous publications on contemporary art since 2011 he has been at the strategic director of Fogle's iceland ireland arts an initiative of the Canadian Shore fast foundation to find alternative solutions for the revitalization of the ear area that is prone to immigrations since 2019 Schaffhausen has been the artistic director of the exhibition and educational project tell me about yesterday tomorrow and the Munich documentation center of the history of National Socialism which brings contemporary artistic positions and current approaches to an exchange with institutional remembrance work show has show housing has extensive experience leading renewed renowned institutions such as the frankfurter consuela and the Cussler house stuttgart and with the with center in rotterdam show housing was the founding director of european Kosala conceived conceived as a project to examine the conditions and structures of contemporary art institutions independent of local government mandates co-curator of the six Moscow Biennale in the biennial in 2015 show house and is also a visiting lecturer at age I asked a higher institution of high arts in Ghent he has a curated number of international festival and exhibitions and to make it shorter in 2017 and 2009 she was the curator of German pavilion for the 2052 second and 53rd when is being biennial and for the 56 venice biennial in 2015 he curated the cause of a pavilion from october 2012 to the end of March 2019 nicolas outhouse and was the director of the Kahala in vietnam and this is already this last position relates also to my first question and now I will read the last part of his CV as he send it to me and this would be also the little provocation Nicolas for you to try to explain this what is written here a little bit more in details so it goes like that inmate 2018 he announced that he would step down he's posed on 31st March 2019 for political reasons as he saw the effectiveness of cultural institutions such as the Coons Harlem Vienna being questions questions for the future in view of the current nationalist policy in Austria and the European situation in times of right-wing populist movements it would require a much stronger support on the part of national cultural policy so what does it mean well this is a quote what you were reading and I could record it again I gave to magazine art magazine last year after my decision to leave or when I announced my departure of this institution indirectly they have answered it yeah it's him I was it's always strange to listen to a CV like this but what it says to make a long story short my experience of the last 25 years were directing several institutions across Europe and partying in Canada and after such a long record of being director of institutions I realized that and you know it – I think we all know it running institutions institutions require reform every everyday practice and in the way I personally came to a debt and I couldn't play anymore the opposite yeah the opposition to work that towards the audience towards the media towards towards towards the artists towards people who are who are visiting us or I'm not so sure anymore for what we are for so I'm of course I'm talking and my from the from the institutional feel from the public institutional field I left that position for the end of the day it was a personal decision of course yeah but when you look I'm not Austrian yeah I think I may have to make that clear and even as a German in Austria I suffered from Sinnoh phobia so and know that for a white person so speaking the language it's my that how does that fit together so but you in if you look a little bit I don't want to blame the Austrian citizenry that and but if you look into Austria as very wealthy well functioning former Western European country I think you can learn a lot so the those institutions as other public institutions museums universities and etc are operating inside a comfort zone and which we all wear off but to whom and I'm not talking about visitor numbers to whom do we reach out and vote for and there I see the lip the limits and for yeah yeah I really see the limits I don't think that we can reform those institutions from the inside I really think that we have to look for new models not to attack those institutions but for new models getting a political back up for those institutions that make them more visible in that means politics come into the game so politics are really not interested in those institutions especially not in a country like Austria or Germany or Switzerland we are operating in a again for the so-called elite in which we are definitely operating in and and this elite is important for us operating in the system itself and making our earning our money making our life and we are almost a very rich vessel for the right wing's we consider them as right things all right wing parties to beat the enemy so and that is I think we need to be avaricious that we are we are part of the enemy and we are not really doing the right political thing to reach out to others I'm not that's that's this no I think that's the dilemma and the conflict in which we are operating and not only not only we as curators and directors of institutions also artists because the role of artists not only from your individual practice from where you're arguing from so but the question I think in the future will be does this really matter what you do for society as much so it's you know and then and I you know I I left that position from a very from a comfort zone of course not because I wanted to put myself in a in the victim role but I realized in where there's politics the National which is definitely the national nationalistic politics and policy in Austria as an example it's a small country yeah it's all its so because of its smallness yeah I think you can research it a little bit better to learn to learn from it and do it better but this is not really happening in the country itself because it's very self centered with their daily daily problems in the in the question of institutions and our culture the models of cultural production that obviously needs to change I'm also working in the institution in the National Museum and I think there must be something that we need to think and we need to change the institutions with other agencies from you know from outside institutions so it's not enough yeah no no I think we are we have limits to change the institutions the polity we need to be more political we need to have more political power so and and also individuals in the private foundations most of you know we always talk about private foundations are fantastic how great they are but the problem is they're only up most of them are operating on their own behalf so it means they stay in there again in their own system instead of of trying to change the system just giving the money away for other purposes that's I think one of the main and the biggest the whole foundation model has to change it means the tech system has to change the control system the bureaucratic system has to change nothing you will talk about this from so we will to design app them xenoverse with rich experience curator based in istanbul currently running the project bahar she's the curator of as I said before the pavilion of Turkey at the 58th international art exhibition in Venice and Baca Awards bacca bacca world exhibition and of marva Reshma Reshma it Bonifant vent museum in 2019 she was one of the interactors of the Sharjah biennial 13 curating the biennial off-site project in Istanbul in 2017 as well as co-curator of the I shall try NL 3 in 2016 who's was the co-founder and director of the spot production found from 2011 to 2017 during which she curated produce Syria one two three she also curated the film program greatest common factor at Sault Istanbul in 2016 the project plastic veins at home works six ashqelon Beirut 2013 and selling snails in the Muslim neighborhood at the West Valley Circus foreign Minster 2013 this has been on the curricular and selection committees of home work space program of Asheville Alvin in Beirut since 2015 so they naturally are already in the middle of discussion of different model of cultural duction so we can continue this question with you on the institution work and you I think you for me you are really special here in terms how much you work with production of artworks you know I think that we in our conferences wherever we talk a lot about institutions are general but not not enough about the production so this is really you know unique that we we have you here and thought my question would be about your concrete work with art production and I would ask you also to relate it to the concrete situation in Turkey not only political but also you know the situation dominated by the private sector mostly which is not our case thank you pick up on what Nicholas is saying indeed and it's um what's very much the case that we have a lot of private sport patronage and support comes usually from private hands in terms of contemporary art most of the time public and national sport is very absent so I think I'm trying to also think about what you said Nicholas and like related back to that but my maybe I'll just start from my experience and extrapolate on that and you can like we can try to bring them together but yeah as you said I usually like at least in terms of the work that I've been doing in Istanbul where I've been based for about 10 years now and that work is a lot about commissioning new works and trying to work with artists on the ground and what I found I think what's going on a lot in the last three years and this is not like as you said produce was series that I worked on for about seven or eight years and that was funded by a very specific project called spot that I co-founded and then bahaar was actually founded as like funded by George Art Foundation show it was the off side project for for the Sharjah biennial 13 and but this would be like something that I'm talking about in terms of the commissioning work that I do on the ground but I'm actually well how I'm gonna answer this in a convoluted way I'm coming to it I'm gonna answer this is I'm thinking about like my experience of trying to work with artists on the ground but I'm also thinking of institutions who are on the ground such as you know people like depo their initiatives that are coming up like poche a corner in the world their initiatives like what that do a lot of the work that I do and when I think of funding in the sport and the organizational system in Istanbul I think there are a lot of institutions that have been ongoing for a while now that are supported by in turn by big institutions be they banks or be they big big families big support big funders done there like initiatives that are ongoing on the ground that are much more smaller that are more initiative there are more where the artistic production is going on and something that I can talk to within the framework of our panel which is like talking about the recent years in the rising nationalisms and the rising way in which things are sort of going in terms of cultural policies policies like really policies are going in a certain direction I think cultural policies are following up because they always do and then of course funding follows like just right tailing all what I've been noticing in the last sort three years is that I think the kind of funding that is for these initiatives that is more about the organic things that are going on on the ground for artists that our younger and that are you know like not as well formulated and that are not expressing things that are you know like just big and huge it's to handling I think it's this is something that is I mean it's very easy and we always say that funding is always the Wendling but I think there's a reason why this is the bundling and the reason is that I think the kind of work and when I say work it means also like exhibitions I'm also talking about publications I'm talking about writing thinking all of the work that is more that is not as well established that doesn't have done that type of immunity that comes from a while like big track record is being is being seen as too risky to be supported because it's not them it might just like crack a political nerve it might just go on a political fault line and then something might just go off and this is something that I think a lot of funders fine too risky to stand behind and this is why I think in the last two or three years especially like I'm talking about the experience of Islam on what I what I've been seeing and feeling on the ground but I think it like goes to the region that I know a lot a lot a little bit more about and then I guess you could like think about it bigger I think what's going on is that like these kinds of risks are having less and less of a space to be to be to be talked about the other thing specifically in a sambal that I'm seeing and I'm thinking about is that we have a lot of funds for process-based works right now like process based either educational programs and residences and all of this and I always am for you know like a big supporter of these but I think the reason again I'm gonna tie it back to exactly what I was saying I think one of the reasons why this is happening is that it's not production based process based means like not production not product focused there is nothing that's gonna come in material form and say stand right here that people are going to be attacked if you're supporting something that's very much processed based it's amazing like I don't get me wrong I totally am behind this I've been advocating this forever this is what I do but at the same time I think there's a reason why this is the type of infrastructure that's coming to be more and more in Istanbul because I don't think there is as much space for bearish very clear full-bodied cultural and political stance to be shown and then to be attacked because they might be attacked so I'll maybe stop there and you can buy home like I think everyone like I think like you and me like all of us I think there's a little bit of a like less of a room for attention like you spark what do you call it you spark a fire and it might startle it you spark you you light a match and it might spark a fire that kind of a tension going on but I think just like it might be something on the newspapers it might be like a general public situation and I think that's more of like what's scary very interesting so it means also that there is still there are people who still believe in power of art somehow you know because indeed and I think by the way like when I say these like I'm afraid like I just want to put it like very well on the ground I think censorship and self-censorship are like very much vitally like tangible in like it's almost specifically right now it's it's like it's something on our minds it's not like out the back of my mind it's on the front of my mind and a lot of people so it's not our like thing but but I'm just saying like I think there are ways of dealing with this that I yeah can I ask a question I you know this self censorship not not censorship self censorship I you know in institutions in public institutions this is I think it's common practice we are already over that step so it's a most we all know so many correct you also have to criticize our colleagues and curators there are they do it on their on their own also on their own behalf in the they don't want to have any conflicts in etc but my question would be to the artists so do and I don't think that uses self-censor your yourself but what is your expectation from public institutions and political expectations yeah beyond you know I mean I think about that a lot yeah is then I grew up inside it in the middle of London where Camden Art Center was actually a place you could go for extracurricular activity you could go to Camden Art Center and you could learn to draw or you could go and do those adult it was actually like an adult education you know space it wasn't necessarily just a gallery so that sense of a public institution being almost like a kind of community center has gone you know completely gone so also something I noticed from quite a while ago was that you know suddenly after the kind of you know as Kojo was talking about in relation to artists of color in the UK you know you know remembering Chris of Healy Steve McQueen inker you know this kind of period thinking oh well you know fine you know the public institutions are interested in artists of color because of course they're you know they live in the middle of the belly of the beast and they understand how to think kind of with producing I think of this as a kind of resistant aesthetics in that's quite a complicated idea but I would say that that's kind of what I'm thinking about I keep thinking about that and also this space for convivial antagonism which is what you need as a space of argument with people who are different to you right a place where argument can happen but the sense that this was kind of replaced so for instance there was an up there was a huge amount of pressure put on the Arts Council of England to say but you know from this generation of Stuart Hall and past you at all that Art Institute like art for art publicly funded institutions need to have representation of people of color from the UK on their boards and etc and they need to be more attentive to those to their programs right I was one of I did one of those programs like 20 years ago where I was literally felt like a gorilla on the front line inside a racist institution of kind of Englishness which was very twee and kind of impenetrable upper-class twee Englishness theatre organization calling itself international but you know anyway much you know later I started to notice that they were inviting a lot of artists from elsewhere from Africa from India as if they were kind of more authentic then artists right there in the middle of Britain and I realized maybe it's because they want to invite them so they can send them home because actually they don't have you know to deal with them like in London they don't have to deal with like loud mouths like us you know like you know who are going to be critical of the institution they're going to be like oh welcome you know we're very happy to be here thank you for giving us your entire like floor of a museum or whatever you know so there is that sense that always a profit abroad but I do expect that the public the public institutions in Britain are now like basically strangled by managerial language so you know they have to write you know they you have to write all these you have to your bureaucracy is just strangulate strangles you what are your key performance indicators you know what is happening is that there is a sense that nobody is talking to people who are different to them nobody's thinking about class you know education is programs are not even that interesting anymore you know you know these institutions should be far more attentive to thinking around at adult education but all of this was kind of under you know a Labour government or would be under a Labour government but is there kind it is a complete threat to the elites to have people who are from from a lower class educated and we grew up feeling like it's great to be an intellectual but we're not going to be snobs okay I just so if I can like sort of think about what you're saying and like you're talking about like I don't know the context of the UK so well but I'm just like sort of going off of what you said you're talking about like the race issues sort of being codified and like a certain kind of institutional model that's what you're referring to and what I feel like I'm referring to us like the invisibility of like the small institutions and then production in the name of like bigger like gigantic like places and I hear like Nicholas sort of like saying like we need new models out of these and I'm just like actually like it's sort of a prompt to like say like do you have a I mean this can be like you know and then maybe like I don't know like the context of Ljubljana what is like I guess like that's a too big of a broader question like to say what's a new model but like to from which to jump into thinking about like these models like ya know I don't have a specific idea what a new murder can be but that's one of the reasons by a step out of the existing model to work on this and i working future you know if it was just a laugh this is of course I'm not talking about tomorrow but it will be definitely a long process it needs new definitely new map new financial models to support you new models or institutions as such you said you were talking about the bureaucratic structures yeah that Suffocation's and and and this is not just there that's not just a UK problem so those you know what I said earlier I'm what we you know institutions require reform you know that nothing very here and they do it all the time but we also realize that this is not really working so that means they need to be attacked from the outside and now there are institutions are attacked from the outside but more from the political agendas from the from the right-wing field so we have to learn from this so and to take it take definitely to take those strategy over so then now the only can change institutions from the outside so not only from the inside or both and of course yeah ends if you look into who gets appointed at the moment directors play a very important a more important role than ever as the public faces of such institutions and I'm a little bit worried about who will get supported appointed to four such institutions most other people are not speaking out so it not exclude inside it no it doesn't exclude our work so it is very important that we change the institution together with our constituencies it's more about you know I agree but we are not enough from the inside so we need to look for new aliens as from the outside and this is money so only money you know change and changed okay I think it's time for the questions from the audience my question is actually for Angelica if you were talking about can you hear me um Angelica when you were talking about Dee coloniality I'm wondering if you situate that within the institution or without or a mixture of both I mean I wanted Kojo to talk about I want to coach her to say something and hopefully he was going to say something about movements I mean there are movements going on there are groups existing groups already doing this unlearning there are younger there are kind of groups of younger people constellations of people who are thinking not just as artists but also in terms of unions as workers how they can you know be together to rethink their spaces there's all kinds of new groups emerging outside of the institutions but when I talk about decolonizing the institution yes I think it has to be a mixture of both the outside and the inside because as Nicholas said the pressure is from the right wing the right wing want to perform multiple enclosure acts so that nobody speaks so they want to prevent institutions from growing it is the glass ceiling that is imbricated deep within the structure of the institution so the glass ceilings are there there are walls not just ceilings now there are walls there are cocoons there are spaces you cannot get in so that's how I pictured it when you were talking about it so I think the the decolonization what is it at the services it has to be a political gender because the right-wing don't want to deal with multiple forms of difference they don't want to deal with different humans they don't want to deal with what has been cast as the inhuman which is matter they don't want to think about the rights of other forms of life and other structures so that is why I was talking about the end of the world so the sense of how to restructure actually I think requires new technology that has to be in the hands of us so I think about that as a black algorithm I mean there's some you know there's there's several notions several projects underway under the umbrella term of decolonizing you know on one hand you've got the the impact of the coloniality of power theorists Annabelle Creon Oh Walter Manolo you've got a kind of the delayed the delayed response to their thinking over two decades which is which has moved in as the as the earlier wave of post-colonial theory has somewhat receded at the same time you also have the ongoing work on settler colonial thinking the critique of settler colonialism figures like Glenn Coulthard so I think you have both of these happening simultaneously and then both of these are charged by the the the the fatalism and euphoria of climate catastrophe which creates a certain kind of it charges all these existing debates such that they overflow their academic complexes and and start to circulate so so for us there is a lot of energy in in trying to trying to connect to these debates which which are disputes and arguments over the future of the world the debates in America around afro pessimism figures such as christina sharp figures such as Sudhir Hartmann older figures such as Hortense pillars these black feminist thinkers have a huge impact in Britain our students our friends studying these people all the time their theories they impact on people's thoughts at the same time all of this travels to us through platforms so a lot of this is coming through platform scholarship that's to say you know as many people are watching for example the the african-american feminists who gathered around seemed only at Guggenheim around her loophole of retreat exhibition so I'm in London but I'm watching that because Guggenheim you know Guggenheim recorded that so a lot of people in London spend their time studying recordings from you know Vimeo or Google and in a way building buildings study from that and the term study means a lot to us study as in how Fred Martin and Stefano Hani talk about black study and black studies black studies being the formal study of the end of Western civilization as CLR James calls it and then black study being what you do with your friends in a ways we study helps us to cut across the notion of research which is somewhat stultified and somehow captured in academic credentials and academic protocols study moves on a diagonal between the informal and the kind of specific so all of these questions to me are part of what is it at stake in the question of D coloniality so I know there are specific movements in the states around decolonizing the museum and I know in Britain we have parallels but I'm much more interested in the new in the energies that the F'lar s when debates that begin as academic debates move and and take on a certain intensity and in a way that's part of what the hell Malick calls the para academic I mean so so Haley's right he's quite critical because he says you know asking art spaces I'm not necessarily talking about epic art spaces I'm more talking about small so-called small scale organizations I'm asking art to play a pedagogic role asking it to in a way supplement the insufficiency of the Academy he says is not really that's actually that's not necessarily a a progressive position to take I can see what he means but for me there's an energy that comes when a certain form of study emerges and it speaks to a yearning yearning to to to upgrade vocabulary and to in a way what resident Negros tiny calls them to root to upgrade one's commitments to renew one's commitments there are commitments but these commitments need refreshing okay so you took over definitely institutions yeah I I totally agree but I wanted to pick up your black agar isms what you said I think this is ex tremely Angelica the extremely important we in we didn't any Munich a little for the Youth Center for national the history of National Socialism a bit of research about all the black algorithms and you can learn from there lots so and we have to work the whole fields a critical field that's called the critical art field has to work on how to change the algorithms yeah that this is a if you google this is what we are doing here it's all about the elites the money so you know the the center system via all again operating in within this and this this is not mirroring the the reality so and that's those we sorry there is one question yeah okay the question talking about money have you been to the Biennale some of you have been to the Biennale in Venice well if you go to the if you go to the cafe bars inside the Biennale and you eat a croissant or you eat a sandwich you have an amount of plastic that you can cover the planet so talking about reality and not talking about academic conceptions I would suggest the mr. roogle to go and have a coffee because it is a disaster the way that in the Biennale you are the strongly the planet which is just a paradox don't you think so well I would say that plastic comes from people's minds you know you can look at particles of plastic and they originate from the mind of masters have broken Earth's as Katherine Youssef would write in her book the black Anthropocene so it's you know the people the petrochemical industry is responsible for plastic and the deadly bind that one is in that many of these are you know that I agree you know I always go around saying where are your paper straws you know okay maybe this is a nice conclusion we should think about more about the commonalities and this plastic is obviously the common problem it's more and more urgent to work on our commonalities than on our differences and yeah against also against nationalism thank you very much for excellent contributions whenever is never enough but we can continue later somewhere thank you to Julieta as well for inviting us yeah that's what we forgot to say as we thank you Joe later

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