Jonah Goldberg – “Suicide of the West” and Preserving the American Experiment | The Daily Show

Jonah Goldberg – “Suicide of the West” and Preserving the American Experiment | The Daily Show


My guest tonight is a senior editor
at National Review, an L.A. Times columnist, American Enterprise Institute
scholar, and best-selling author,
whose latest book is called Suicide of the West:
How the Rebirth of Tribalism, Populism, Nationalism,
and Identity Politics is Destroying
American Democracy. Please welcome Jonah Goldberg. (cheering and applause) I thought about pawing you up, sort of a Macron versus Trump
kind of thing -and getting all handsy,
-(laughs) -but I decided better not.
-We should have done that. We should have done, like,
a little handshake into a kiss into, like, a little moment
into a thing. Yeah, and I could have, like,
whispered, “I like your musk,” which is what I think he was
saying to him at one point. -It felt like it.
It felt like it. -Yeah. Trump-Trump’s really into him, which is something that is good
for America, yes? Yeah. Uh… I-It d… Maybe. You know, it… If… It’s good for Amer–
for us to get along with, you know,
our 200-year-old allies. -That’s good, right?
-Right, right, right. Uh-huh. But if he’s only doing it
because somebody is sucking up to him, less good. Right? I mean, it should be
they’re getting along because we have
mutual interests, -we have mutual values,
-Right, right. and they reflect that. It shouldn’t be because… uh, the leader of France says, “Not only are you
a handsome man, you’re a powerful man.” Right? I mean,
it shouldn’t just be sucking up. -All right.
-It should be something more. I feel like it should
just be that. Yeah. (both laugh) -Welcome to the show.
-Great to be here. -Thanks for having me.
-Thank you for coming through. And, uh, you have written
quite a book here. Suicide of the West. If ever there’s a title
that would catch you, it’s that. Why the title of the book? Um, well, in-in part because… I didn’t say
the death of the west or the decline of the west. Uh, as grim
as the title sounds– and it actually doesn’t end
as grim as it sounds– uh, suicide’s a choice. -Right.
-You choose to do… um, to make these decisions
that you’re making, and, um, I think
that one of the things that people don’t appreciate
is that if you… you can choose not to do them,
as well, and that a lot of the things
that are-are… plaguing this country
are within our own power to fix. Right. It’s interesting,
’cause you talk about nationalism,
tribalism, populism, all of these things
that you believe are leading to the decline
of-of America. When you talk about the decline
of America, are you specifically referring
to capitalism and the way
it’s made America thrive -over the past 300 years?
-In part. I mean, I call this thing
the miracle, right? But the miracle
isn’t just capitalism. It’s also, uh, natural rights, um, civil rights, uh, free speech– all of the things
that we associate with the Bill of Rights. The idea that the individual
is sovereign. That we’re captains
of ourselves. That we are citizens,
not subjects. That the government
works for us, we don’t work for a government. These are all
unbelievably new ideas in the history of humanity. -Right. -Humanity split off
from the Neanderthals, like, 300,000 years ago, and for most
of humanity’s existence, we were poor, ignorant, bloody, violent creatures, right? And, um, and our human nature
hasn’t changed. We’re still the same creatures -we were 10,000 years ago.
-Right. What has changed are our values, our norms, our institutions. And if you don’t have gratitude
for them, and if you don’t try
to protect them, they’ll go away. -And… -It’s interesting
that you say that, though. You go, “If we don’t have
gratitude for them, if we don’t try
to protect them.” Because that seems
like an argument many people in America will use
for one group or another. -Mm-hmm.
-What’s interesting in this book is you refer to both sides
of the political spectrum doing similar damage or an idea that may cause damage
to that idea in the same way. So, for instance,
you write for National Review -as a conservative writer,
-Right. but at the same time,
you are not a fan of Trump. -I think that’s fair. Yes.
-Right. So, you are saying that populism, both
on Trump’s side and on the left, are-are…
there’s a danger of that hurting -America’s capitalism? How?
-That’s right. But, look, there-there’s nothing wrong
with a little populism. Right? Um, there’s nothing wrong
with a little nationalism. It’s like a pinch of salt brings
out the flavor in the meal. -Right.
-Too much ruins the meal. -And way too much is literally
poisonous, right? -Right. And so all poisons
are determined by the dosage. Um, you know, my-my favorite
New Yorker cartoon, which my wife got blown up for
me a few years ago and framed, has two dogs drinking martinis
at a bar. One dog says to the other,
“You know, “it’s not good enough
that dogs succeed. -Cats must also fail.” Right?
-(laughter) And that’s sort of where we are
as a culture right now, -where it’s not, you know…
And I… -Right. This drives me crazy
about my own side these days, where I-I talk
to young conservative activists, college students, and I say, “Look, by all means,
fight political correctness, -“if that’s what you want to do.
-Right. “But just because being rude
is politically incorrect doesn’t mean
being rude is good.” And so much of what’s happening,
I think, on both sides
of the political aisle, is this-this idea that you
can do almost any horrible thing -if it annoys the right people.
-Right. And that’s a huge part
of the defense of Donald Trump, which I just find
intellectually bankrupt, which is, “Well, he’s got
the right enemies” or, um, “He’s making
the right people upset.” Well, you have to look at what-what
is actually upsetting them. -Right. -And some of the things
that upset, you know, liberalists
and leftists I can agree with and I… you know, I’ll support. But some of the other things
are just sort of crassness, rudeness for its own sake. And I don’t see
why I should defend that just because he’s on my “team,”
as it were. It’s interesting
that you bring up teams, because it does feel
like America is drifting into a space where politics
is solely about teams. You pick your team. Whatever
your team does, you defend. So, the other team,
whatever they do, you pick the opposite, you know? The ref is biased.
This is against us. Those are not facts, because
they don’t work in our favor. Does this, in your opinion,
lead to a place where the experiment of America
begins to decline? Is-is that the only thing
that’s kept it moving? Or has it just been an illusion
that’s lasted for 300 years because there were people
who were previously oppressed and that wasn’t something
that America ever was? No. Look, I mean, look…
Are… Have… Are there bad things
in American history that we need to atone for,
that we need to fix? Do we have problems today
that we need to still work on? Absolutely. My point is is that, um, again,
human nature has no history. -Human nature is a constant.
-Right. We have the s…
If you took a kid from, uh, New Rochelle and you sent ’em
back to a Viking village to be raised by Vikings
a thousand years ago, -he would end up going pillaging
the English countryside. -Right. You take a Viking baby and
you bring it to New Rochelle, it’s gonna grow up to be
an orthodontist. Right? -And…
-A very big orthodontist. -But yeah, yeah.
-Yeah. And so, uh, -these challenges exist
in every generation. -Uh-huh. Um, it is human nature to want
to be part of your tribe. We are hardwired
to be part of a group. That’s how we evolve, is to say, “I will do everything
to help…” And Darwin writes about this.
“I will do everything to help -“my team, my friends,
my kin, my family, -Right. “my allies, my coalition. -And the stranger is the enemy.”
-Right. And what it… You know,
and so people, you know… There’s a common cliché
that says people have to be taught
to hate. Um, no, they actually have
to be taught not to hate. That’s what civilizations do, is teach people to see… And it starts with Christianity
or Judaism. You go way back
in the religion department. But the fundamental insight
is that you need to teach people that strangers
have human dignity, -that strangers
are decent people, -Mm-hmm. and just because you don’t know
them doesn’t mean– or-or don’t agree with them– it doesn’t make them the enemy. And I think
we’re falling down on that in our politics,
in our education. And instead,
we’re telling people, “Just go with your feelings. Your rage is more important
than facts or argument.” -Right. -And that’s where
you get populism. That’s where you get a lot
of nationalism, too. But if you…
if you have somebody -who is trying to end you…
-Mm-hmm. …how do you then work
on responding to that? Because that’s something
that I’m always… trying to figure out
in my head is… It’s one thing
for people to say, -“Let’s keep politics,
uh… civil.” -Sure. “Let’s not have an argument. Let’s not point each other out
as enemies, etcetera.” But there are times when… -Let’s say Charlottesville
is a good example. -Sure. There are people
who are literally saying, -“We are Nazis.”
-Yeah, yeah. These people are wishing for
the end of other human beings. It’s a bit difficult
at that point to say, “Yes, yes, but let us, uh… let us sit with them and engage
as they drive over us.” -I… -It’s a very difficult
space to be in. Oh, I agree with you, and look. Look, my last name’s “Goldberg.” I’m not really
a turn-the-other-cheek guy. I’m more of a smiting
and wrath guy, so I… I get what
you’re talking about, but… -Right.
-But my point is… And I agree with you entirely
about the neo-Nazis. One of the things
that infuriates me about what Steve Bannon and some
of the people around Trump did, um, was claim that somehow -a bunch of friggin’ Nazis…
-Right. …were part of our coalition. And I would keep trying
to explain to these people, “No, you don’t understand. “They literally say that
they want to get rid of people -like me, people like you.”
-Right. “Why-why should I form a common, “you know, group with them
just go get this guy elected, or just for political purpose
or whatever?” Some things are
existential questions. And I’m not saying
that we should have gone into Charlottesville and shot
a bunch of Nazis, right? -Uh-huh.
-But the idea that somehow, um, they have something important
to say that I need to find
common ground with them, -I-I think is ridiculous.
-Right. I also think it’s ridiculous
to call people who aren’t Nazis -“Nazis” as a way
to demonize them. -Right. And I think there’s a lot
of that that’s going on, too. And so,
it’s a prudential question, and you have to sort of
figure it out as you go. It doesn’t mean
you can’t have big arguments. I’ve always believed that
democracy is about disagreement, not about agreement. It’s about having arguments. What I don’t like
about our politics right now is how people don’t think
arguments matter at all. That facts don’t matter,
that, um… You know, the whole point of
the Enlightenment was this idea -that you could persuade people.
-Right. And part of the reason
I wrote this book is, it’s as much a cautionary tale
to my allies on the right, is that a lot of people are just
giving up on persuasion, and instead, it’s just
hammer and tongs, cats must fail. -It’s all about power.
-Mm-hmm. The arguments in defense
of Donald Trump in the… in 2016 were all about winning
and strength. Winning and strength are not… They’re absolutely
amoral concepts. Winning for what?
Strength for what? -Unity for what?
-Right. It has to be the ideas
that underlie it, and we’re in a moment where a lot of people just don’t
care about ideas anymore. One of the big ideas
that you share in the book is that America needs to focus
on less identity politics, -on both sides…
-Mm-hmm. …and more on merit, because merit is how
capitalism thrives. Merit is what moves
a society forward. When you say that, though, do you think sometimes a statement like that
ignores the fact that some people’s merit
is overlooked… -Absolutely. -…because
of identity politics? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, look. Uh, look. You know, it’s funny. Like, most of the liberals
I talk to– they-they like
the words “pop…” They agree with me
on the populism and nationalism, and they don’t like the…
And the tribalism. -They don’t like the identity
politics part, right? -Right. I am not saying
that you can’t… First of all, I’m not saying that there isn’t decimation
out there. Obviously, there is. What I’m saying is that one of
the great and glorious things– and Barack Obama
was very eloquent about this– um, about this country is…
is not that America were… the Founding Fathers
were hypocrites when they started this country.
They were. You know, slavery was a big,
you know… It’s a big… You know,
“Hey, what about that thing?” -Right.
-Right? Um, same… That’s a great description,
“What about that?” Yeah, but you know what
I’m getting at, right? And so… so what happens is, is then
Abraham Lincoln comes along with the Gettysburg Address,
and he redefines what this country’s about–
about, you know, equality– and then Martin Luther King
says, “Hey, wait a second,” a hundred years later
he says, “Wait a second, “the Founding Fathers wrote
a promissory note “to the American people
that all men, including black men,
are created equal.” It’s the unfolding of that story
that… that is what matters. And so one of the core values–
all civilization is, is the story we tell ourselves
about ourselves. And one of the reasons
why Martin Luther King was so persuasive is he was
appealing to the best ideals of white America, and saying: you should take people
as you find them. One of the great things
about the American founding, which doesn’t
get taught anymore, is that we got rid
of titles of nobility. We got rid of-of the notion that
simply by an accident of birth, one person is better
than another person. And so a little
identity politics, just like a little nationalism,
in terms of ethnic pride and solidarity,
all of that is fine. When you start reducing
whole categories of people to an abstraction, and say,
“All I need to know about you -is the color of your skin,”
-Right. that’s when you get
into a problem. And this idea that
all white people are racist is… is-is,
first of all, not true. You know, intermarriage rates
between whites and blacks are going through the roof–
they can’t all be racist, right? But I think the argument is less
“all white people are racist,” and the system has been created
by white people to oppress people of color. So I think when people say
white people are racist, I think that’s disingenuous. But most of the time the
argument people are saying is: Hey, we can admit
that this system from the Founding Fathers
through to redlining through to segregation
was written in such a way that it would benefit
one race over another. It would hamper the cats
and allow the dogs to succeed. A-And look, I think there’s obviously
a lot of truth to that. Um, at the same time,
the definition of who counts as white
changed over time. -You look at the Benjamin…
-Right. But changed for everyone -except black people.
-That’s… and that’s true, too. -And that’s part of my point,
is that… -(applause) it is an outrage that
this country took so long to include everybody in this
idea of universal equality. That is not an argument
for getting rid of the value -of universal equality.
-Right. Right? It is… it is to say that we need to be
more consistent in applying these ideals
rather than saying these ideals themselves
are bankrupt. Because it is these ideals… Look, for all of human history,
the average human being everywhere on Earth lived on
average of three dollars a day. Africa, Asia, Europe,
everywhere. And then once and only once
in all of human history, it starts to go like this. And it’s because these ideas
start getting put into action. I think we should be…
You know, we live in this moment the greatest alleviation
of material poverty in all of human history. Hundreds of millions of people
in Asia and Africa are coming out of poverty. And it’s not because
of U.N. programs. They help.
It’s because of these ideas starting to germinate,
lifting people up. Maybe have just
a little gratitude for them. And maybe have a little room
to say, maybe the entire story of this
300-year miracle isn’t… a story purely
of oppression and tyranny. Were we bad? Did bad things
happen in the past? Yes. Have things
been getting better? -Yes. You can say both things.
-Right. You can say both things. Nuance. The way I like
to think of it is this. I go, uh, capitalism,
in many ways, should be like software
on a phone. It constantly needs
to be updated. And at some point it feels
like the updating has stopped, and people allow it to,
you know, stagnate in the way that it is. And to your point of gratitude,
before I let you go, I think the one thing–
and I wonder if you can maybe
understand this– is when people say
you should be “grateful” for what you have,
do you not think that gratitude is always relative
to the bottom versus the top, in where you are? Because, to say to somebody–
and you hear this all the time– -and I’m not saying you’re
saying it, -Sure, sure, sure. politicians will say,
“Oh, black people, “you complain about America,
go live in Afghanistan. See what that’s like.” See, but you’re not living
in Afghanistan. If I’m in
a Michelin Star restaurant, and the food is not great, you can’t tell me
to go to Arby’s, -because I complain.
-Right. I’m saying to you, “The food
is not what it was promised -Yeah, yeah.
-in this restaurant. So is it not difficult
to say to people, “have gratitude,” when they
are not living in the promise of what
the country is meant to be? Yeah, no. I-I think that
that’s fair. I think, at the same time–
I-I don’t say that to people. -Right? You know. And…
-Right. No, no. -Yeah. Yeah, yeah. -Really, not,
honestly, I’m not saying you do. And so, and so,
I– one of the first… You-You-You’re one
of the good ones. One of the things I-I–
one of the things– And look, I mean, I’ve…
I-I-I’ve taken slings and arrows from lots
of different directions, including from a lot of friends
and former friends, -’cause of the positions
I’ve taken. -Right, right. Um, one of the things
I would say to people who make
that argument, -is “stop making that argument.”
-Right. Right? You know, that’s not
how you should frame this kind of thing. What I would say
is that, you know, the pursuit
of happiness is… -it’s not a guarantee.
-Right. You have the right to pursue it. And one of the great things
about freedom, the miracle, liberal democratic
capitalism, whatever you want to call it, is it gives more people
the opportunity to pursue it. Could that get better? Yeah. But you can’t look
at any of the systems we had prior to 300 years ago, and I’m not sure
you can look into most of the sort of nationalist
or socialist systems -and say, “They’re better
at it.” -Right. And so, when people say we fall short of ideals, I say, well, of course. That’s why
they call them ideals. You’re not supposed
to be able to, like, live– they’re supposed to be
a north star, you know. They’re the thing that your true
north that you march towards, and you can always
get better at them. My point is that we shouldn’t
throw them away, because this is
the only game in town in terms of what has actually
taken humanity out of the muck
of its natural environment. -Capitalism is unnatural.
-Mm-hmm. -Democracy is unnatural.
-Right. If they were natural, you would
think they would show up a little earlier
in the evolutionary record, than about 299,000 years
into our existence here. And so maybe these are things
that we should be a little more protective of. If a goose, if the golden goose
came into your house out of nowhere,
and started– you know, golden eggs
don’t sound modern anymore– started squeezing out
winning lottery tickets… -Uh-huh. This is a weird
analogy, but, yeah. -Right. Yeah, but you would–
you’re response to it should be gratitude, not, like,
“give me more, you know, more lottery tickets
than you can produce.” But that’s what
the story is about is, it’s not really
so much about greed, it’s about ingratitude.
It says… I think, fundamentally,
I understand what you’re saying. And I– that’s what I appreciate
about the book is -it makes me think.
-Thank you. It engages in ideas and, uh, fundamentally,
what the book is saying is don’t throw the baby out
with the bath water. That’s right. That’s right.
And we can disagree about the size of government
and all these kinds of things, but there’s some
fundamental things that we should all be able
to agree have merit
and are worth keeping. You stopped the conversation. Thank you so much
for being on the show. Thank you very much. Suicide of the West
is available now.

100 thoughts on “Jonah Goldberg – “Suicide of the West” and Preserving the American Experiment | The Daily Show

  1. Capitalism has more than enough blood on its hands; if it is not a pure evil, neither is it a pure good. Bonum ex integra causa; malum ex quocumque defectu. So we should not speak of it as if it were something purely good. It is problematic. Socialism also has blood on its hands, but that does not mean that there was no "social miracle" during those same years that there was an "economic miracle." The good elements must be gleaned and discerned. The false ideas and evil schemes must be discerned.

  2. "It's not like there are better systems.." learn and teach Native American history and thought and you will find examples of better systems with more sophisticated ideologies!!!!

  3. Sorry sir, your argument stinks! Your book boiled down to, inequality is getting better so… wait. Problem is, the current situation is the argument of why are we still waiting, when the law already states that there is to be this equality (and has stated such for hundreds of years). So, I'm just wondering, if your boss states that he's instituting a cost-of-living raise to all the employees across the board, yet your check shows no increase, should you go to HR and ask where is your increase? Or, do you just wait while everyone else enjoys theirs? Hmmm, I guess you still don't quite get it, because #ThatsNotIt! SMHH

  4. The key ingredient of the progress of Humanity, as a species, is prevailing tribalism; where the prevalent arc of that progress has consistently bent toward progressive liberalism (nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism – being more "expedient" – notwithstanding).

  5. The definition established by Abraham Lincolns' edict is not that "Blacks are equal to whites"; but are EQUAL UNDER THE LAW.

  6. America is not stagnant. It's being deraiked, deregulated & disassembled by the monied class and the politicians who are their patrons. Period. No mystery. It's the result of deregulation of corporations & businesses. The destruction of the equal level playing field. Destruction of the rule of law. It started with lobbying & the electoral college….and donations to politicians.

  7. Rudeness for it's own sake? I don't think that's what Trump is doing. I think his rudeness is for the sake of oppression.

  8. great ideas. he falls short when he seems to conflate dissatisfaction/protest with ingratitude. It sounds like he is at the top of the food chain, and from his position, he can talk about the great ideas that have driven American progress. He talks about violence and hatred being natural, but doesn't much acknowledge that some societal structures have been designed, consciously or unconsciously, to push some people down.

    As a wealthy white man (fyi: I'm white as well), he experiences privilege as the norm. So when he says we are promised equality of opportunity, not equality of results, he speaks in the abstract, seaming to lack the human experience that would force him to reconceptualized this.
    he would be one of those that would say to activists "change will come, just be patient"

    I always hear from activists that social change comes from protest, shaking things up, making the status quo uncomfortable.

    He is intelligent and tremendously clear and confident; and it seems worthwhile to listen to him.

    He lacks, or seems to lack a certain kind of wisdom and psychological depth.
    otherwise he would not allow himself to sweep aside the factors of the unequal playing field as related to class and race.
    I can't imagine having a conversation with him without resolving this.

    despite all that, he is more thoughtful then most folks talking about politics and Society in the media, and I appreciate this interview

  9. Most of the people I know on the left want a good life for people on the right; we see them as being victims (just like us) of the monied elite who have worked hard to divide us as a people because that means we won't come together for the common good. I think many on the right think they are hated by many on the left. Are there assholes on the left? Yes. There are assholes everywhere. The problem that the right has is that they don't understand that most of us want inclusion and we're constantly feeling like we have to defend the rights of others. And identity politics… that's a dog whistle for many people. The status quo seems to be unable to tolerate that groups of people have REAL grievances and that institutional racism actually exists or that LGBTQ people should have the same civil rights. And talking about grievances gets people's backs up. And people drag out the words Identity Politics to shut people up. People need to calm down. And seriously, Goldberg stop being an apologist for the racism that's actually there (left and right) by prompting this idea as if people are not using it to shut down conversation. Indeed, I find these comments disturbing giving all of the voter suppression efforts going on. It's truly outrageous, including the Supreme Court's ridiculous and outrageous decision regarding reservations and voting.

  10. Hooooold up…

    and wait; wait,
    wait a fuckety,
    fuck fuck
    minute…
    did I just hear
    at approximately 12:17,
    that not
    all white people
    are racist?

    Come on.

  11. Eugh. Capitalism is bull. Suicide isn't as simple as a "choice". No amount of nationalism is good. "Identity politics" is what gets thrown at us every time we try to stick up for a minority. He confuses correlation with causation. He contradicts himself a few times. He's not at all impressive if you listen properly.

  12. People tend to think white people have had it wonderful for hundreds of years, not true. My mother in law was born in Ireland in the 1940’s, many there were worst of than most Africans would be today. Before the war most Europeans and Americans if you were working class you had it tough. Noah likes to complain about a system he is benefited from, more so than white people have.

  13. Charlottesville: The host used it as an example of liberals trying to "talk" with the neo-nazis but getting run over. However this was a lie. The liberals who went to the assembly used violence — then they were run over. Disclaimer I dont support white supremist and denounce them. But I value the first amendment for everyone, and despise violence…and the lies of the media.

  14. I love Trevor interviewing skills. I think is quite interesting no matter who the guest is he actually listens to what they are they saying and finds a way to healthy debate with them without being an argument… And I mean those dimples.

  15. So this was probably the most productive interview that Trevor Noah has had on the Daily Show.

    Not so much in the comments here. Everyone is immediately firing off about Goldberg himself or specific things that were said out of context. Yes, a lot of things brought up in these comments are horrible things to be addressed. But those are not the sole topics being discussed here.

    I think that’s what’s going on here and people watching this are making such comments but completely missed the point of this discussion. Trevor asked questions of this guy at some of his points and he definitely made some good answers that, while not always good, are important to understand. Listen to the whole thing before starting on this, people. Please. For the sake of sanity and actual progress in having debates. Not just mindless rants and arguments.

  16. Goldberg is a joke. His most recent column trashing a Green New Deal is laughable in its inaccuracies,simplemindeness and falsehoods. His worship of corporations and 'free' markets is becoming a dangerous fantasy to America.

  17. Yeah, he's a Republican; a smart, articulate Republican who is right (pun intended) about many simple, general things, but a Republican none the less. When people in this country talk about "the Left" I know they're delusional, because.. there is no left in this country. There is a right, and there is a hard scary dumb right, but there really isn't any left of consequence. And No, Jonah, people don't have to be taught NOT to hate; have you never seen kids in a sandbox; all ethnicities, nationalities languages all religious delusions; but they play without seeing those neat dividers. Their parents, their society teach them which tribe they belong to and which ones to hate just as we teach them languages. Humans are social; we have made some of our greatest progress as groups, not as individuals. His world view is based in the American right's inherent fear of "other" and fear of change. And yes, the US got rid of titles and nobility; in name only. There has been nobility in this nation since the beginning, we just don't call it that. And that nobility brutally suppressed rights of workers and stoked racial divides for profit, so no: I don't buy the "no nobility" chest-beating of Americans. That is simply misguided. As is of course most of what passes as "centrist" politics in this country, which is basically right-wing ideals masquerading as thoughtful, or caring, or anything but selfish and vulture-capitalist.

  18. This guy believes in evolution as a conservative but says a fundamental truth, that humans must be taught not to hate. Humans are born in sin so it is natural for us to hate. If we learn to love then racism will end.

  19. The guest is a historical revisionist who is not ready to admit or account fornthe existence of racism and its vestigial effects.

  20. I am Groot don't let this white man fool you those years ago that he was talkin about when he said we were Savage we were this and we were that it's only in the last so many years that we have become civilized he's talking about the Caucasian is not talking about the African he's not even talking about the Asia he's talking about the Caucasian so don't let him fool you this is one of those nuances I was talking about I am Groot

  21. Capitalism is in and of its self a good idea the problem like any other idea is the “ People” that practice it and the fact that the worst tend to be the best at conquering it there fore creating and recreating it in their own terms and image to benefit them. It’s called Greed! This has cause this country to become essentially another form of Monarch. There fore creating higher status and power by birth, replacing a crown with the power of money. The upper 1% and big corporations are the ones writing the policy with donations in this country. Until all PACs and big money donors are no longer able to run our government this will continue.
    As long as the Nancy Pelosi’s and Mitch McConnell’s of politics are there we will continue on this downward spiral of wealth in equality.

  22. Now this is truly the art of disagreeing. I thought Trevor was extremely deft in bringing out the best in a guest with whom he does not agree and yet challenging them. I like how he did not entrap Jonah Goldberg in what could potentially been a huge foot in mouth, and at times it felt like it could have gone that way. A generous host.

  23. I am Sorry Mr. Goldberg is trying to split the baby and like in Solomon's time, its not possible to split the baby.

  24. To think we are the only humans in the last 300k that are this "developed"…yet we dont know how the pyramids were made..?? Ok..sure. 😒

  25. "Unbridled nationalism, as distinguished from a sane and legitimate patriotism, must give way to a wider loyalty, to the love of humanity as a whole." ~The Promise Of World Peace, Universal House Of Justice.c.1985

  26. It is some of our deepest core beliefs and values that need changing now. What we have done with monopoly capitalism and our extraction activities does not comport with anything natural. We might want to question all of our core beliefs at this point. And there is not much time to make the changes needed. Change always requires great courage.

  27. very good conversation with far sweeping ideas..i would like mr goldberg to dig in a bit more to meritocracy. though almost as nice as listening to hitch and fry..please take that as a great compliment..to you trevor as well.

  28. Completely unrelated but I have come to the conclusion that suicide is the only option for me. I don't think it's a bad idea or anything that's really too too sad. It's sad that we fight for survival only to die In The end. I would rather at least have some control over this experiment, which I never agreed to participate in. I have had relationships I have loved I have been hurt I have been happy.
    I've experienced a myriad of emotions! Yet I am still at this crossroads, it's something I've always thought about and something I'm quite sure I need to do.
    I'm just not certain as to how to go about doing it.
    I know there are good people out there, I just have yet to find any as of late.
    I'll be 38 in September so I don't know whether I'm going to go much further past that.
    But I saw the title of this and it just made me think
    … yes I live in the West/ America. And I feel that the social structure it's f**** totaled. And I don't have really any good reason to stick around.
    I've never gotten married and I don't want, nor do I have children.
    To those of you out there that are doing well an are happy, good on you.
    I'm absolutely jealous I know what it's like.

    But nothing lasts forever.
    This is probably going to go down as one of the most gloomiest daily show comments of all time! LMAO.
    ☮️☮️☮️☮️☮️☮️

  29. Interesting discussion BUT a little bit of nationalism and populism is still toxic! You still consider yourself superior to other people and nations!

  30. Trevor rules! He still has the better answers and arguments whereas Goldberg is somehow trying to excuse the actions of the crime of the white men!

  31. This dude is retarded. Let’s start by saying that just because you hate trump doesn’t make you a decent person. This creep pretty much defended everything about a system built on racism. Then to state that the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS doesn’t mean you’re guaranteed happiness, it simply means go ahead with your pursuit and although I’m going to do EVERYTHING to stop your pursuit you should appreciate the fact that you have to opportunity to pursue it. In other words I’m going to throw you in a cell where you have the opinions of escape but that opinion could leave you with a bullet in the head.

  32. 15:13 people who go to Michelin starred restaurants and complain about the food; 90% of the time SHOULD go to Arby's. The 10% who are right, they are normally listened and refunded, or something is done for them in order to be happier. Just because someone has got critics, it doesn't mean that him or her are right and they've totally understood what they have been offered. If what those people want doesn't fit on the palette of possibilities that the people making that restaurant are willing to offer, it's right for the worker to say: this is not what we wake up every morning for, this is not what we like or want to do. If you like those things, you should try places that offer those type of things. Am I paralleling this example to how to rule America? No. I have just worked 13 years in Michelin starred restaurants so far, and people who complain about things are a small minority compared to whom who like things. Who complains, almost always, doesn't understand well what they were looking for in the first place. "Good food" is a very broad and personal definition of something. Yes, you people, you annoying guests…. you piss me off big time!!! And yes, I will still smile at you, in order to get your tips up to a certain limit. and you don't want to find that limit, so be polite and open minded

  33. My tinnitus is going away just to listen to these two guys talking smart. Trevor is always on it!

  34. Here they tell us that it's bad to be on either team. Next election he will tell me it's my fault I didn't vote for my team!

  35. And today I downloaded the book much recommended. A nice combo with Yuval Noah Harris – Homo Sapiens and the two other!

  36. Ugg jesus stop this argument that civility is learned and being our natural selves somehow mean that we’ll be brutes.

  37. This is a fantastic conversation. All discourse should be like this when it comes to politics.
    Also, I admire Trevor's property of language and how he articulated his thought at 14:42.

  38. It got better but in the process we consumed the planet. I guess we're not as advanced as we think we are and took for earth for granted, destroying any species, plant or animal that stood in our way of progress, at first, and comfort and whim later.

  39. this guy is super legit for a conservative but i have to say i very much doubt that "democracy" is an all that recent invention. it's not that hard to imagine that ancient tribes would decide some questions by voting

  40. I live in South Carolina, I have no tribe. My liberalism exists in a constant anxiety ridden vacuum, BY ITSELF! I live in an area where my ideas and thoughts single me out of all teams!

  41. He completely ignores that democracy existed before the US Constitution. The European settlers used the existing indigenous Iroquois Constitution to draft their own.

  42. Mr Goldberg, in this interview at least, seems to live in the real world of facts, not the fringe right propaganda world where Obama was Kenyan, Hillary sold 20% of our uranium to Russia, and Trump is the second coming. I will watch him again, at least until he starts quoting from an alternate reality.

  43. this man is vile. there is no other word for it. he cites science that is unfounded, sexist, outdated and biased. no, human kind was not always wild and crazy. vikings did not just pillage they also had a very social justice system. things are not black and white, my man. then – of course it is true – hate has to be taught (watch some videos that feature jane elliott on this subject, especially jane elliott and angela davis in conversation).
    his world view is so limited. america america america. he says "the west" but all he sees is america and a lil bit of the other english-speaking ex-colonies (except the african ones of course).
    he really is a classic case of if all you have is a hammer, all u see is nails.
    shame on the daily show for featuring a right-winger like this on the program and not telling him off on his racism, sexism etc.

  44. All politics is "identity" politics. That's human nature. The question is, whose identity gets to be the default, and whose identity is considered the "special interest." Everyone complains about the state of society, and while some people are seen as exercising their right to free speech, others are told that they are just "ungrateful."

  45. Great interview Trevor, thank you. 💫Such a good thought at 14:28: "Capitalism in many ways should be like software on a phone. It constantly needs to be updated, and at some points, it feels like the updating has stopped, and people allow it to stagnate in the way that it is…" 🧐

  46. This guy has some ideas of which I strongly disagree, but boy, what an interview! Really productive discussion. Trevor is sharp ASF in his questions and in his interventions (i.e when Trevor intervenes for not allowing the guest to get away with implying that black people think all white people are racist). The guest, however, is one worth listening too. People like him enriches the political debate. Awesome program, as always. Greetings from Brazil!

  47. 11:50 lol they just changed their names from nobility titles to business titles "President" "Founder" "Stakeholders" "CEO" "COO" "CFO" etc. etc.

  48. People who say "Yeah. no," and then agree with the statement they just negated sound profoundly stupid to me, as if they don't even know the difference between the words "yes" and "no."

  49. While I appreciate mutually respectful discourse, The American Enterprise Institute is a far-right think tank whose members include the Kochs, the DeVos', Cheneys, etc. Therefore I am suspect of Jonah's "reasonableness." I hear his words, but he still writes for far-right organizations that are inherently greedy, racist and corporatist.
    Jonah is smart enough to realize that the Republican Party is hating itself out of existence and rightly knows the rhetoric has to change, but it's just that: TALK.
    We can't afford to be mesmerized by words. We need to put our critical thinking skills caps on
    and keep them there. Just because Jonah doesn't spew hateful rhetoric, he still espouses
    corporate rule, budget-cutting of social programs, and all the damage to our Democracy that's been done since Reagan.
    #WatchTheFeet

  50. 5 min in and my shit sense is blaring. First off, suicide is NOT A CHOICE. It is an outcome. This man Jonah Goldberg is a horseshit coward because he is a hypocrite. We must realize that IRONY IS DEAD. In the wake it seems harder for ppl to identify what is just dumb false hypocrisy. Nothing he says gels without a hidden motive to lie. He is a conservative trying to spin old ideas to sound like progressive conservation. So oxymoronic it's just moronic. His mode is subtle hyperbole. It's cognitive dissonance at its best which is worst; fcking maddening. His favorite New Yorker cartoon🙄 is two dogs in candor about systemic oppression and it's framed on a wall as a gift. A gift brings him joy bringing me cringe. The casual chuckle racism must give him is unsettling. The bizzarro nature of this man is to be the mechanism in antithesis to the deeper thoughts Trevor often goes on about. He spouts at length "facts" to say baseless horseshit. He plants these historical anthropological politically scientifically effective anecdotal tidbits to space out the contradictory blah blah that is he. Jonah Goldberg was born out a babbling brook of contradictory blah blah flowing from and feeding into itself like a masturbatory MC Escher drawing. Just like those stairs the illusion here is that this man is going ANYWHERE we haven't already been with any of this. The danger however is all the fcking fckd up doorways to pasts best left behind this type of horseshit opens. For everything that Trevor said in this convo Goldberg's book will wink nudge nod and approve the opposite. It will AFFIRM democracy is unnatural. It will PREVAIL the MYTH of Human Tribalism. It will pardon the apologists comfort the sympathizers and encourage those who see the light at the end of the tunnel as a flash out the bad end of a gun barrel. Jonah Goldberg is delusional. Don't believe me? Ask that toupee. Horsetail hair sitting above a pile of horseshit. Still not ironic.

  51. 2:46 "For most of humanity's existence, we were poor, ignorant, bloody, violent creatures, right?"
    Uuuuuuughhhhhh the good old cliché that anthropologists and paleoanthropologists have proven wrong decades ago and yet you still here it everywhere. What the hell. It's the equivalent of creationism but no one gives a fuck.
    7:00 "(people) actually have to be taught not to hate. That's what civilisations do." My god how can you be a published author on television and have absolutely no clue about your subject. Mind-blowing.

  52. "either with us, or against us"
    ~ the excluded middle
    ~ le tiers exclu ~ tertium non datur
    ~ 1 – 1/3 ~ 2/3 ~ .666 ~ 666 !

  53. 🤔 Trevor taught someone today he has great intentions which is great but alot of his points are coming off very dismissive. Not all white ppl are racist. But I'd say the average white person is still very unaware what white privilege boils down to. Which contributes alot to the discrimination and suppression of others. Like it's not that everyone is a racist it's just alot of white folks walk through life blind af when it comes to racial issues. That all lives matters bull shit is an example of what I'm getting at here. It's like ughhh duh you dumb bitch. Can we have five fuckn mins to say our lives matter with out your shit and you wanting everything and taking everything and stumping over everyone. Fall back the conversation is about black ppl being murdered by cops. Not white ppl being bored . Even the debate about the flag. To not even be willing to understand why someone would feel the need to do that is just you being a blind racially insensitive jackass. Or racist depending on the person. And meanwhile the same white folks burning shoes could have donated those expensive shoes or that season sky box money to the many vets who are out here on the streets mentally I'll and walking around barefoot. That's the extraness.

  54. Trevor, as a South African l must admit that your influence on South Africa will be much bigger and effective than that of Nelson Mandela if you were to take up the challenge to save South Africa and put it on a path to prosperity and unity.

    You are so damn hardworking super intelligent and confident that there is no job in this world you cannot do and make a massive success of.

    Our country needs you when you're ready Trevor.

  55. I don’t make the argument that people should just be more grateful. 5 minutes later People should just be more grateful.

  56. FOX tells their viewers who they are & what to be angry at. #1 starting point! Get rid of Fox’s Gaslighting & the Media Sensationalism of every little error.

  57. I like this guy. He makes a lot of sense. I got to say though people it's ridiculous that everyone still thinks that this is all about race, it is not about race it is about wealth inequality, no one has seen a white black Asian Hawaiian Mexican doesn't matter guy in poverty in 2018/2019 and thought to themselves "we got to get him out of there based because of their skin color." Politicians love this talk about race cuz they can't do anything about your race and they can let you argue this way and that about it. Still don't have to do anything. You start talkin about wealth inequality they get scared they scream class Warfare because they know they have the power to change those numbers and do something about that, but they like it better to keep the money for themselves and their lobbyists. So as long as we're talking about race they're happy

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