Globalization and Identity Crisis: Breeding Ground for Populism – 21st Forum 2000 Conference

Globalization and Identity Crisis: Breeding Ground for Populism – 21st Forum 2000 Conference



jemelle all right good afternoon ladies and gentlemen my my name is Michael Santos ski I'm the executive director of the Vasa Havel library in Prague and it is my honor and pleasure to chair this panel on globalization and identity crisis the breeding ground for populism I will start with making just maybe a couple of controversial remarks as usual the causal chain between globalization identity crisis nationals and xenophobia populism and decreasing trust in democratic institutions and political parties as implied by the annotation for the panel seems to me rather simplistic it is undoubtedly true that the present crisis of democracy coincides with the acceleration of the globalization process but that does not necessarily mean that globalization is to be blamed for everything and in particular what I miss in this scheme is some degree of self reflection and introspection about how much we in the democratic societies and those of us who believe in the democratic process and are involved in the democratic process whether as politicians or as academics or as civil society activists co responsible for this unfortunate the recent trend I would like the four pre eminently qualified panelists on my panel and I my only regret is that we have no women on the but we have to make up for it the next time I would like them to address if possible at least one of the of the following questions first is conflict an unavoidable part of globalization and if not can it be avoided and how second what are the causes of identity crisis is it the intrusion by the outside world the globalized world or is it a loss of local perspective is it the technological progress is it the shortsightedness of politicians we sometimes influenced by the media and by political discussions seem to believe that most people today at least in the developed societies live in a globalized world but I would argue this is not quite a case there is a minority of people mostly extremely qualified people who do live in a globalized world and have the choice and tom says have they breakfast in Hong Kong on sushi and day lunch in in London and a dinner in in New York but in terms of numbers they represent a very still a very small section of the society most people at least in this country and in some other countries I know of still live in a local world they preeminent worry is not about Ebola or global warming or even the migration crisis but about how to get a bus from the hometown to the next town how to attend to to the needs of the schoolchildren and so on and so and so forth and sometimes it seems to me that this is creating tension between the voters and the electorate and the political representations who inevitably are drawn to the global phenomena the third question that lots of Havel had been asking and would still be asking if he were alive is are we witnessing an emergence of a global civilization he very much hoped to see that happening or are we witnessing a clash of civilization as Samuel Huntington feared I mean mind you because this is often an Mis interpretation I mean Huntington did not believe in the clash of civilizations he feared the clash of civilizations and in his book he discussed some of the ways a clash of civilization could be avoided and blast is and that is brings me back to my initial opening is the crisis of the democratic system a result of the globalization process or is it a consequence of decay caused by unresolved issues and some of the latest works by Francis Fukuyama on the origins of social order and political system is a source of a lot of material on on this question so with this I would turn to the panel and I would ask Robert to Stefan fule host lecture in political science at the University of Melbourne in in Australia to make his opening remarks great thank you thank you Michael for that introduction so I I sort of understand they're three questions the first question is is globalization contributing to the rise of populism the second question is if globalization is contributing to populism and how is it doing so and then the third question of course the question we all care about is is what do we do what is the response to that and I think the answer of the first question is very simple I think it's a yes I think a globalization has contributed to the rise of populism how is it done so I think there's really two mechanisms that I would identify first of all I think globalization has created new economic divisions in society in particular between cosmopolitan urban centers like London or New York or Berlin or perhaps even Prague as well that are connected to the global economy and that are competitive in new sectors like finance technology education media tourism and as a result people are doing very very well in these few cosmopolitan centers but while people in London or New York have been getting ahead many people in the rest of the country are really struggling just to get by and in vast ways of our societies in the American Midwest in northern England in eastern Germany people feel left behind because they have been left behind and people feel invisible because in a very real sense they are secondly I think globalization has created a social class divide and there's obviously something that is related to the economic divide in that that's something you notice particularly in developing societies but it's true across the world that you have a very small minority who as you point out can have breakfast in calm and in London and dinner in New York a minority in society that is english-speaking that has studied at elite universities in Europe or North America and whatever its superficial diversity it's an elite that is actually quite homogeneous on social and economic policy issues such that when the average man or women on the street switches on the TV and they look at politicians the political class when they look at public intellectuals and they look at people like myself what they see is a group of people who don't necessarily think in the same terms that they do and perhaps just as importantly don't don't talk in the same language that they do and that's I think a really really major problem for any democracy because ultimately on some fundamental level if people don't feel like you care they won't care what you said so this has created a really fertile breeding ground for a new form of populism and I don't think that this is a passing wave I don't think it's just something that happened in 2016 I don't think that we are past the high point of populism I believe that this divide will affect politics in Western societies for at least a generation so the key question is for those who care about democracy and liberal democracy what is the appropriate response to this new political cleavage and I think there's really so two thoughts that I hear in discussions with people over the last over the last year the first suggestion is that if we are entering a new populist error with will divide nationalists against the defenders if you will of globalization or cosmopolitan liberalism then the solution to the problem of left wing populism and right wing populism is to try and create a sort of populism of the center and that sounds like a kind of crazy idea but if you look at figures like Mack horn in France or indeed Barack Obama when he was running to become President to the United States they do provide examples of outsider candidates who mobilized based on movement politics outside or quasi outside of existing political party hierarchies they had a kind of celebrity politics aspect to them and they were very very successful in reaching out to people through the new social media so so there is a possibility for a kind of centrist platform to function in a populist age and to win elections so that can work there are obviously many many problems for most among them being the movement politics tends not to survive very well beyond the individual politician who has been the center of that movement but but but they provide examples that they can work and the second suggestion which has perhaps a little bit more pessimistic is that we're just going to have to place our faith in a process of democratic learning that is to say that you know maybe not this year and maybe not next year but over the course of a decade over the course of 20 years time people will learn from the failures of populism and people will see they will see the examples that have not worked so just in the same way that in Latin America everyone can look at Venezuela today and nobody takes Venezuela anymore as a model and eventually people will learn in the same way from the rise of populism in southern Europe people could see what has happened in Greece and they can see that syriza and C products do not provide a model for for dealing with the eurozone crisis so placing our faith in democratic learning is perhaps a little bit more pessimistic it will take a little bit more time and it unfortunately means that we may have to tolerate a kind of politics that is a little bit less liberal but potentially a little bit more democratic thank you thank you very much Roberto and I have a few questions in mind but I will wait for the end of the introductory round I would now turn to your now Yongin our is character with a varied career which is the way I like them and he was an actor comedian a politician the mayor of Reykjavik the capital of Iceland he was a founder of the best party I'm not sure whether it was the best party but he was called the best party and that's that's a fast – and and he's remained after retiring from politics he's remained an activist and writer and involved in in Social Affairs so young yeah thank you I would like to start by saying how glad I am to get to be here with you and discuss these things and wonderful to be in beautiful Prague and and I plan to do my own private Jaroslav Halak tour tonight but then there was also a football match Iceland has to win Kosovo tonight and we will do that of course and there are many many things thought globalization and and from my point of view as somebody who has for the most part of his life living in a place like Iceland globalisation completely turned my country upside down and maybe most drastically in 2008 when our financial institutions completely collapsed directly because of globalization and and and it's and I've given it a lot of thought because it's globalization has good sights and it has some bad sights and opportunities but also problems and like now today Iceland has become very trendy it's a popular destination for tourists and in a country with a population of through three hundred and forty thousand people and we have now over two million tourists and of course the tourism saved the economy it's everybody's working in tourism now everybody used to work in the banking sector before but now everybody is working in tourism many of my friends who are artists are now guides they have turned away from from acting because acting doesn't pay as well as being a guide and it's amazing everybody is a kite and and so and people have been asking me in terms of tourism like is it bad or is it good is it good or bad tourism must be tiring for you but yeah it can be but it's also the thing that helped rebuild our economy so so it has good sides and bad sides and and for me I or most of my life I worked as an artist I'm a writer I write books and I and I write scripts for television shows and I and I am also an actor so I play in my own television shows and and I've considered myself to be political but in theory I've been interested in political philosophy and political theories and not so much in contemporary politics it's like it has bored me not interesting it's not how I perceived politics like they were done they were supposed to be done differently and but after the crisis in 2008 i i i entered into politics and i got me thinking maybe more regular people not professional politicians should get involved in politics and and and I started my own political party and I ran for the elections in 2010 and it was a I mean my platform was was popular it was it was what I call positive populism and I promised people whatever I can because one of my main promises was that I would break all my promises anyway as his tradition in politics so I can promise you whatever you want me to promise you and and you know get away with all that that's a promise both for me and you know I'll get away with all your depth and and I was elected and and I stayed in office for a whole term I was the mayor of Reykjavik for four years and it was an interesting but also terrifying experience I was I was not at all prepared for it and and it was much more hostile than I had anticipated more aggressive and tiring and so after the term was over I I I decided I would not run again even though people were happy with my work and wanted me to continue and an agreed said yeah we need politicians like him and and I didn't want to continue and I think honestly I had I suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder after my experience so so democracy and you know when we when we talk about democracy for me is communication it's interaction communication between people and and the less people are interested in it less interested in actually communicating with each other the worse it gets and it also creates a vacuum because politics and democracy aren't 20 at the moment and it creates a kind of a vacuum for opportunity opportunities like populist movements to take up space and get some attention and and and it's for me it's kind of like leaving your house open and like anyone can come in to your house so it's and eventually somebody will and so and I think it's very important when we talk about and discuss democracy that the things that are discussed and the things that are done are not always the same it's two different things and I like to compare it democracy with love we we like to talk about love and we have songs about love love is all you need and and love love love and but doing love is a totally different thing and and making love is absolutely completely different so and I would say like lavash is not a word it's it's it's not a thought it's not a feeling even love is first and most action something that you do and it doesn't become love until you actually do something you can tell somebody I love you I love you but it's meaningless if you never do anything for that person just I love you I love you I made a song about you I love you I love you and it's meaningless and make a bad make a bad for that person you know get a coffee or something that's love so you know and and it's a and it's in a way our laziness that creates populace [Applause] [Applause] you can see on that you have an audience here and for the right reason we will now move to Senator pitch senator which is an independent politician in bosnia-herzegovina he's the member of the House of Representatives of Bosnia and Herzegovina he is or was a member of the party of democratic action but he's on the reformist wing of of that party and he campaigns for more human rights and political reforms in the Bosnian herzegovinian Constitution Senate floor is yours thank you so much thank you first of all I would like to to stress some other issues that you mentioned in your introduction speech me held regarding three of your topics or let's say points that you stress usually today conflicts are in my view connected to identity crisis more or less you can see that's that's that case also when we are talking about globally or locally it's also very close each other it's very connected everything that's going on everywhere you can see through Facebook Twitter or no social media everything that's globally it's at the same time locally as well and the third issue you mentioned is weaknesses of democratic institutions I agree with my colleague he established no political party as I as I understood I also established new political party which name is not the best political party but which that will be the best political party in my country I'll do my best to organize and forth to form my new political party as the best political party in Bosnia and the main reason that I see in in order to answer on that dilemma is also a lack of contacts between political elites political leaders political political parties and the ordinary people and that's very shortly answers on your points may hell that you that you mentioned and now as I am the only one speaker from at in this forum mm from Western Balkan I will I will say something more about my region about Western Balkan region in my country in general it's difficult to approach any topic from from Bosnia and Herzegovina perspective and have a simple and non complex explanation some people who knows about how it's going on situation in my country they know what I'm talking about my country is still on on a periphery of globalization yes we have access to Facebook Twitter and we do watch the Game of Thrones TV show at the same time as people in New York or or Paris or everywhere but the fact is that my country as a country and society is not integrated in the globalized world compared to our neighbors we are not a member of the EU or NATO or EC the membership or Schengen and eurozone memberships are decades away in Bosnia and Herzegovina when I talk to citizens or even academics many would tell me they feel that globalization and capitalism have been bad for their daily lives as they can watch the game of Thrones and go on Facebook daily impression does not reflect reality of Bosnia and Herzegovina they are still isolated from globalization the case of Bosnia is a good example of how multi-ethnic social structures hamstrung the emerging state in the early 1990s shortly after the declaration of independence in 1992 inter-ethnic conflict between ethnic Rods Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Serbs broke out the Dayton Agreement formally put an end to the violence in 1995 but let's say control democracy model which could best be described as a top-down approach applied by the international community demonstrates how preconditions such as war at ethnic conflicts were least favorable for transition and consolidation current interim state structures of Bosnia and Herzegovina for instance demonstrate how international and the regional actors affect statehood let me give two very short examples several months ago Croatian government increased its prices for all fruits and vegetable products coming from Bosnia and not and other non EU Balkan states that transported via Croatia to other EU members the increase was very high up to 15 times higher than before so it's the factor blocked our exports for several weeks and since buyers went to other sources in the factor destroyed many of our producers Sputnik a Russian news outlet active in Belgrade and the Western Balkan reports that about the situation with a narrative of EU and globalization versus poor Balkan producers the truth was that within days after Croatia has decision the European Commission got engaged into a matter and managed to persuade Croatian authorities to reverse its decision the blow to II use and Croatia's image in the Western Balkan and all of us arguing for integration of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the world was high second example is a statement by Czech president Zaman from couple of weeks ago he went to media and said that Bosnia and Herzegovina could become a base for Isis in Europe as so many Muslims and sympathizers of extreme ideologies live in Bosnia and Herzegovina the statement went viral within minutes giving support to all those who make similar claims for years and then it provoked reactions by all those who felt the need to defend Bosnia and help supervenience read moderate and genuinely European Islam including me the truth is this matter is that European European Union in Bosnia and Herzegovina has one of the its biggest delegations in the world it has a military mission l4 that is capable and does collect and and does collect data on various security threats you also support security reforms in Bosnia and Herzegovina the country was among first to introduce punishment for those who go as fighters to foreign countries and has already sentenced several cases and all serious organizations NATO European Union L for foreign secret services agree that Bosnia Bosnia and Herzegovina is not only far from becoming a base for ISIL but it's doing quite a lot in this area so how come the president of an EU country can go in public and give such a statement and how do we prevent from such statements to create negative reactions in the country by having all of these effective and credible institutions that can counter these false or she'll of narratives is the only that can work security but also diplomatic institutions thank you so much thank you Senate and and maybe I should apologize I mean we have our own crackpots in this country so you know others country do too so Lea Lea or God is an associate professor at the IDC in Health's Lea Israel but also teaches at the European University in Florence at the Berlin University and he specializes in many things constitutions your citizenship theory global migration international governance and political theories so you can basically choose your topic almost tempted to talk about love not in the sense that you mention but also the connection between levels of country patriotism and the connection to the identity crisis but I will not do it now I want to talk about what I call the global identity crisis and by focusing on immigration law immigration policy an immigration is just a fascinating platform to reflect and to explore national identity and this is because the requirement we demand them to adapt to accept in order to join our society they mirror not only who we are in many senses think we are but also what kind of nation we wants to be now just seventy years ago in the post-world War two international systems Western countries didn't have an immediate need to set boundaries to their identity national identity was was a given not something that had had to be defined and people had a solid sense a robust conception of what does it mean to be a French Dutch Italian or German but and that's the important thing time of change from any reason global migration the rise of multiculturalism minority rights globalization forces specifically in the in Europe the establishment of the of the European Union and all those factors have led to a reality in which it becomes less clear what does it mean to have a collective identity and how morally justified it to acknowledge it but also to act upon it I'll give you two example the UK and France so take the UK if you ask what is Britishness there are here British in the audience so in 2002 the Britain has the UK Britain has started to a debate over its identity what does it mean to be British in a global era and the government established a committee in order to investigate the concept of Britishness and the same year the Home Office published its own version of the essence of Britishness and you take a look for the list area there are eight values I think in the list and there is nothing particular British there I mean that's about welfare democracy equal protection freedom of speech the rule of law but they are British the same as they are French Israeli or American so a few years after 2005 the committee for racial equality offered its own version of Britishness and even published just a Britishness pie I could not show you here but there was a Britishness pie of what the values the British values principles and institutions and interestingly if one looks at the citizenship test life in the UK test which is a test required of migrant one can easily see that in less than a decade Britain has changed its concept of the essence of the concept of Britishness three times now take France in November 2009 back then Fred president Sarkozy lunch at national discussion national debate over the meaning of Frenchness and I quote for you what does it mean to be French he asked the French public and there was a 3-month debate which yielded the heated discussion over the meaning the essence of Frenchness and the more adding things if you look at the result so the French didn't do like the Britain's sir we are not this is unfriend to establish a committee invited to investigate what is French nice but this was like a TV reality show the the public to define Frenchness and the more other thing that shows that when states nations started to start to explore the meaning of a collective identity they very often conclude that there are more sources of national division than social unity now French and France and Britain are just an example I think that if you look more on global perspective kind of zoom out from the United States to Australia from Japan to Germany we are witnessing a process of kind of an Nations in search of an identity some particular distinguished character identity that goes beyond global economy and political liberalism so what is left what is left of of a national identity in the global era reviewing a national identity debates especially in Europe indicate that with very few exceptions mainly the national language European states ground their national identity mostly on universal principle or a local version of universal principle of political liberalism and it's true state seeks to protect a particular identity but interestingly enough they cannot clearly define specify what does it mean and they find out that their sense of identity have has become less robust then originally thought it includes at best a local version of political liberalism but also lots of kind of absurd and funny popular item of the popular culture like carnivals and festivals and lots of sports in especially in citizenship test and I think that this business occasion of national identity and the downgrading of national identity to festivals and local social mores or if you want the very idea of searching the content of our national identity and attempting to define it is perhaps the clearest and the biggest indicator of of a global national ident the crisis thank you now we can talk about love thank you very much the ad and thank you all for for your presentations I think we have a lot of food for short with respect to all the three basic concepts that we've been discussing globalization as Yun said can be good bad there are some basics about it good things about it populism I I have to make a personal admission I stopped using the tan because I don't know what it means anymore I mean we have 10 days to an election in this country and if you go out on the street and look at the billboards and the slogans there's not a single party you could not label as populist because the promises the slogans have very little to do with what is going to happen after the election and one of the easiest definitions of populism is is making promises that cannot be implemented or or realized when you spoke you reminded me maybe he was one of the godfathers of populism the former Israeli prime minister levy ash Cole who was allegedly saying is attributed to him saying yes I made a promise but I never promised to keep the promise and so that's that's populism in in in brief for you and and as for the identity crisis I'm not sure I I am a psychologist by profession originally and you know identic crisis is when people are not sure of their own identity when they are losing the identity and what we've been witnessing the last few years is a kind of in many places reassertion of of identity you know 20 years ago we all wanted to be Europeans and and never mind but they were Czech or Slovak or Paul or Hungarian and and these days you know there are half of the people in Europe want to be Dutch or Finn or Hungarian or even Catalunya and and so on and so on so it looks like identity is making a comeback with a vengeance and we should also be able to to account for that so it's and the European identity we were striving for has sadly you know failed to materialize in any tangible respect I mean you could quit that the closest we got to a symbol of a European identity is the Euro song competition which is festival of the West music in the world and most of it is not it European music it's originally American pop music brought to its lowest common denominator so if we are to build a European identity we have some work to do gentlemen sure you let's go the in the in the in the rivers or the yes typical Israeli I'll answer your question by asking your questions about what is left of national identity that's that's what a moderator is supposed to do right so imagine that now you are the minister of whatever integration immigration in this country and then you have to define three top items only three which defines the Czech identity that you would expect the other than an check like me to know to understand to accept to be committed to to identified with even to be loyal to in order to join the society what would they be those kind of question very difficult to answer when you look at now European struggling European state struggling to define themselves and it's true you see kind of free emergence into a identity and Catalunya of course but some other examples but then there is a question whether it's a real thing or it's kind of the swan song of the old structure of national identity and rediscovering or a new version of what does it mean national identity and just take a look on the the life in the UK test although citizenship test the Dutch cane on there is not much there what you see there is number one local version of liberal values and number two this tea sniff occasion of identities that we German is the beer past evil in Munich or a whole Monte conception so sometimes there is a romantic conception of what does it mean mean to be Dutch for Germans of the Germans a few years ago they adopted the citizenship test it was in hessin and the questions that they thought the migrant would should answer where they had to cite symphonies of Beethoven and the writing of Goethe and Nietzsche and Schiller lots of sport and I think that if you isolate this romantic conception of national identity not much left there well if I if I may try to disagree respond to that of course we we do share some universal values and very important universal values I would not argue that for for a minute but the truth is they are dead you know people generally don't wake up thinking about the rule or or a constitutional democracy etc etc they wake up thinking about things that are closer to they day-to-day experience and if I should try to define the identity of this nation and at the risk of half of the room disagreeing with me I would say it's the identity of a small European nation mean a meaning that it lacks the Imperial dimension it lacks the great power dimension it's a it's a view from from the bottom up second that the history of this nation has started to be rather skeptical of of grand concepts and visions like Universal progress and and end of history and and alike and if we have a a new party in this country it will not be called the best party as ASEAN was it will be called what Russia called his own party the party of moderate progress within its of the law that's and I think that's very close to to what you could define as as the Czech identity and if you go to other countries in the region you would come up with different elements of what makes them different from other European nations and if you come to Israel you will see the same thing so the Universal dimension is not necessarily at the exclusion of the individual dimension yeah yeah I just wanted to say what I have discovered coming last time I was here in Prague I was I was looking for some translations of Hassocks other words than then then could soldier swag and and I was surprised how little there is and I went into a bookstore and asked for other works by Hasek short stories or his biography or something and in English and was like no don't have it then it was like but there was a whole shelf of Kafka like anything you wanted to read about Kafka was there and no house again and so and I was asking people about it and I said yeah maybe Jax don't like to portray themselves like because a little shy this is close too close to the bone kind but yeah but I was I was thinking in terms of what we have been talking about globalization and identity and I because of my work I I travel a lot and I visit many many different places and they're all coming becoming the same the center of cities are becoming the same Prague and Copenhagen are becoming the same because they have the same words and they have the same shops it's H&M and it's Starbucks and it's and and and more and more the same and I I was in in Tokyo this summer and and it was the same there was that I was III thought it would be more different but it was to my surprise more like the same and I even saw some Scandinavian shops in downtown Tokyo and and and cars are also I mean when I was growing up European cars were I mean German cars were certain type French cars were totally different they were more streamlined and then they were American cars completely different they were bigger and and and you could recognize a car a brand from seeing it now you don't all cars are becoming the same they're all the same even even American cars are the same there aren't different Chevrolet this is becoming like Skoda it's it's it's you have to look at the name front of it to Joe okay it's a Chevrolet it's a and-and-and-and-and yeah and like like in Iceland Costco opened a few months ago in Iceland and before we had local supermarkets who sold very expensive and bad food but it was local and it was our food our bad food and now Costco offers quality food for less price and of course people go there and and our local supermarkets are going bankrupt probably and it's a it's a good thing but also a bad thing and and so and and and I was thinking what I was thinking maybe this globalization is affecting political parties the traditional political parties are all becoming the same like everything else they there isn't that difference between the left and the right like it was before it's more or less becoming the same it's all similar so and that's maybe populism is some sort of you know challenge into that right like and that's also you know like nationalistic values and our identity and stuff like that that's okay I want to leave time for for the others but just a quick reaper tree it's undoubtedly true what you're saying I mean if you come to a capital of any European city and go downtown the shopping streets look increasingly alike you have all the same brands all the same shops all the same restaurants etc etc but it's also – the further you go away from the center if you go to a town in in in northern iceland it would probably look considerably different from a town in southern Bohemia and if you look deeper not in terms of geography and infrastructure but in terms of spiritual thinking the average or the good Icelandic novel will still be very different from a good Czech novel or from a good Israeli novel it's there is something and that's my whole point there is something left of some kind of it identity there I don't want to push it any further so nod I would like to say that it's obvious that we live in uncertain times and everybody can feel that let's say every day and as you as you mentioned that many issues has changed in the last 20 years when we are when we are talking about our interest to European Union and opposites what what what changed in my view because of lack of common results that we could see as a people as a Europeans of the European institutions some leaders because of that lack of of concrete results instead of discussing and speaking about concrete they opened and they started to discuss about some national populism and something something like that but I don't see any let's say better approach then to then to try to be unit then to try to be together to fight to fight against let's say common problems and common challenges that we have and in order to that I think that the biggest challenge that we have in front of this generation of politicians and especially new generation of politicians is to reinforce that kind of I would say that kind of interest for having come an approach in in solving common problems that's how I see in general our future work yeah all right what is populism and share some guilt here because I introduced the term populism of the Santo attention so obviously populism is defined by anti-establishment and anti elitist politics and depending on who the movement candidate or party defines as the elite that tells you what kind of populism you're dealing with right so if it's you know liberal liberal cosmopolitan elites then clearly we're looking more towards a right-wing form of populism if it's economic elites then it's a left-wing form of populism and if there is something like a populism at the center that is not toxic in the way that the other forms of populism often can be then it is simply defining the elite as the old party structures the ossified political systems that need to be renewed so that democracy can breathe life again alright maybe there are possible alternative terms then for this you know we sometimes speak about non-systemic parties or movement sometimes we think about speak about anti-establishment parties and movement they they do describe what you just mentioned you wanted to have a go yeah if we agree that please most of us agree that there is a process of if you want a universalization of national identity that in some senses we all have become global now then there is a deep fundamental question here and this is whether it is legitimate from a liberal perspective to protect the very little that is left of national identity and I've written a book on which offers a liberal theory of cultural majority rights and what happened in the last two decades is that the liberal thinkers in human right activists focused law and policy have focused on minority rights multiculturalism which is the right solution for a real problem of needy minorities but global migration and the numbers and the phase of global migration and the compositions and the outcome and many other reasons and globalization and the European institution they have all led to a situation in which in some countries the majority at least has a sense or is feeling also that he is becoming needy and liberal thinking should give a thought whether there should be a liberal concept of cultural majority right and what does it mean and in many senses what we are seeing now at witnessing now with this majority nationally in Europe is and I'm with you it's moral panic populism demography obeah whatever you want to call it but whatever we think about cultural majority right for man and jingoistic perspective this is a topic that we are likely to hear about in the near future more and more and my view is that ignoring the fears whether they are justified or unjustified but ignoring the fears and the anxieties of majority populations is not only a theoretically wrong but also politically unwise I think it's a very good point and maybe we'll consider some further but I think it's now time to turn to the audience please introduce yourselves and yes Joey Negley Jolie our Negley former former UN mission Kosovo for many years and before that I was Radio Free Europe and do a I've recently retired I found this a very interesting discussion I would posit a few other things that either weren't said or were said in such a way that there seems to be seem to be a certain gap in memory what we still have in East Central and southeastern Europe is a coalescing of national identity in the face of God globalization to say that Czechs look at themselves as a small nation well until 25 years ago they're part of a much bigger state a state of two nations albeit but a state which until 1938 was the among the ten most industrialized nations in the world so to ignore that element of their past when they were someone and now they're just like all the others that also as a part of their identity what's more it's taken them 25 years since the breakup of the Federation to decide that well Czech Republic is sort of a cumbersome sounding name let's call ourselves Czechia which sounds absolutely impossible in English and I wrote about it 25 years ago and I still find it unacceptable the cost of our Soviet sorry the Albanian citizens of Kosovo who make up over slightly over 90 percent of the population have dual identities much as the Serbs in the Republika Srpska today three deputy ministers of the government in Tirana the Albanian government were appointed who are Kosovo Albanians there are overlaps and you find the same obviously in Belgrade not only with the Republic Lisa the Republic of Srpska but with Montenegro and so in the faith despite globalization in areas where national identity still a hundred more than a century a century and a half after was generally defined national identity was defined in most of Europe it still hasn't been finalised in a number of areas and how do you see that where do you see that heading yeah the lady over there hello I'm Mary Ann cover observer Macomb I have the overview of somebody who has got two citizenship citizenship and check and I'm Canadian too and I found his discussion very interesting when I'm in Canada the identity of check checks is covered by all of us here being European suddenly there is very little from the Canadian perspective there is not that much difference between Holland and checks we are Europeans but when I'm here and I'm looking from the point of Central European both in history where we had many nations running across what is now Czech Republic leaving seeds and children and so on all through history it's amazing that Czechs have such a strong identity in language songs food when you go to Moravia such a strong tradition of costumes and connected mostly with religion so it's an interesting perspectives I like to invite my fellow actor to go past McDonald's and Starbucks of Brac go deep deep preferably with a Czech person to find the check on that it is still very strong and my question here is what could be done so that Papa lists like some of the readers right now here in Czech Republic wouldn't win their votes on being popular wine drinkers and people who talk to folks that can understand them and have so that we can have a little bit more choice what can be done okay thank you very much there's a lady on the right in the back yes hello my my name is Maria Cerreta my identity is Russian and actually I have no idea what to do with it I it's I would rather give a few comments and questions one comment is that basically I think there is a conflict between collective national identity and other potential identities like whenever you're Russian s or Czech nasur swedishness becomes very important it usually comes in conflict with your values so I think there is my D problem with that then second question is or it's a question don't you think that to some extent the concept of national identity is somewhat obsolete and maybe the form of where people get together and discuss what it means to be French is something almost like a forum where people get together and discuss what it means to be a woman or a man isn't it something slightly old-fashioned and unto a trying are under struggling to recover his identities because basically we are lost not knowing how to live without them and actually we should live without them because there is not much space to be Russian in this world if you are loyal to bigger values okay will you take one more question here thank you very much my name is Jacob I'm from the Czech Republic and I'm a master students of politics and sociology in Berlin I'm have a very short sorry I have a very short question addressing Yann at the beginning of our discussion you said that it's our laziness that creates populism and I it's a thought that struck me because I'm really interested what did you mean by we or our because I'm really interested in I mean I think the society not even in America or in Europe is being divided into two groups that's what I'm thinking and so I'd say if it's our laziness that creates populism did you mean that there is a missing there's a missing patience from the group of people who are connected with globalization and the people who are being left behind or being invisible as you said in the beginning so what do you mean by that can you put on your idea and I'm really interested in this because I'm really I'm trying to think out I'm trying to think about how to make a bridge between these between these two groups of people who are being left behind and people who are being globalized who are connected to globalization so if you say it's is it our responsibility of people who are being globalized to sort of be patient and talk to the people who are not or what do you mean by by the laziness on where are we thank you I I cannot hear myself so anyone wants to take a go at it we will continue with questions then well I I will just make one small terminological maybe point we've been discussing identity as it is a compact phenomenon but in reality I think there are aspects or levels of identity that are do not always go hand-in-hand I mean if you speak about political identity it is undoubtedly true that most people on this continent share the same set of political values that they think are our normal and acceptable if you speak about economic identity then you will find already divisions between the globalizing strata of the society and and the stay local strata and if you speak about cultural identity it's a it's a completely different picture altogether because this is something that goes back in time quite a lot with many nations and that is a part of a legacy that that you know most people unconsciously or not are keen to to preserve in in some way so I think when we try to discuss all these things together you know we may arrive at contradictions that would not necessarily be there if we discuss them separately the lady thank you I'm Norma Harvey I'm an American historian who's been living and teaching in Prague for the last ten years and I have two things I especially like to say one is the part of the problem we have now is the values that we are looking at internationally are focused on greed whether it's greed for money or greed for power and everyone who's left out of that which is the majority of people have every reason to feel that they have been misplaced mistreated and so forth the other question I have is do you think it would be useful if we focused on what it means to be human instead of what it means to be a particular ethnic identity thank you well I sing it's time we we recognized a problem at least the two of us here I don't know if it's the acoustic in this room or I'm getting death but I find it difficult to understand most of the questions that come from from the audience so if we don't if we don't refer exactly back to your point then my apologies but there's not much I can do without it there's a lady who would like to ask a question and a gentleman yes I am and I'm from Senegal I did my undergrad in the u.s. in Boston and I'm I just finished my masters here in Prague well nationally I am Senegalese but I consider myself a citizen of the world so in that view I would like to ask the whole panel to which extent can we still talk about national identity and how should identity be perceived in the world as it is now thank you thank you and thank you for asking the question in a very intelligible way I I've heard you my name is Sharat I'm from Thomas at University in Thailand and in my work I think it is useful to connect the idea of identity and democracy through another concept meaning citizenship by that I mean when you enter into formal democracy democratic process working for example the question you ask is the citizen citizenship of the person what you have done true citizenship is frozen identity because what the chairman has said I think is important that is to say in all of us here I am at I am also a Muslim I am also part Indian so all of that constitute who I am in that sense so these are my cultural citizenship that constitute Who I am but when I go to the all the question is what is your formal national identity and that is to say you then freeze your cultural identity into one and then you vote the question becomes you know the tension between formal identity and cultural identity I think is a map of the uncertain times of democracy thank you now we have one more question from the floor hello my name is Miro I would like to ask you about the direct democracy I see the parallel we are talking about the globalized people and the people who are not globalized and this reminds me the difference between the best universities in Switzerland and the people who are working with calls on their farms in ops yeah and how the Swiss people solve this that Switzerland was not divided or I think because they are discussing together every time it is maybe hard and a lot of people who are more globalized they're afraid of the direct democracy I understand why but I would like to hear from you something about this topic if the if there is solution in more democracy I mean the direct democracy thank you anyone would like to try this the last one I was at a conference in Athens two weeks ago and it was held in Athens because the organizers felt that Greece and democracy had something to do with with each other and there was a lot of young speakers and a lot of talk about direct democracy there was a speaker icing from Denmark who came up with the idea that what's wrong with politics is not democracy but the politicians and he argued that there is no inherent link between democracy and elections and that actually in the old Greek city-states the magistrates were selected by a lot by lottery so he proposed that we do away with political parties and go back to lotteries as a way to choose our politicians I'm not I'm not sure I I would follow him all the way there but you know it's one of the one of the ideas I would like to say about direct democracy that it's it's a method but it's not the perfect solution we tried it in Reykjavik we came up with a thing called system called the batter Reykjavik which it was a website and it's a website where people can directly come up with ideas and then vote on ideas and I was especially excited about Patrick a week because I saw it as a platform mostly for younger people to get involved and to my disappointment the participation rate in it was extremely low I mean it was I think it 7 percent was the highest and and and then it just went down too and I think it's I don't know what it's now but probably three or five percent or something and so yeah and I I don't know I'm not familiar with the experience in Switzerland but from what I understand participation rate is regularly dropping so it's you know yeah two point one is on national identity the second is on global citizenship national identity is a follow up on your point so we have seen I guess the difficulties to define national identity there are conceptual difficulties methodological theoretical you name it but imagine that now congratulation we have a national identity what exactly are we supposed to do that when it comes to migration and there in Europe at least there are three approaches one is that citizenship is like a bar exam one can learn to become a citizen so we just asked the migrant to learn and memorize our histories and languages our national aspirations culture song food and then if he or she is good enough he can become a citizen a second approach is that citizenship is not something that you can learn you have to fill it you have to have some love of the country a few years ago there was a famous quote of the Dutch Minister of integration and she said and I quote one cannot study to be Dutch one has to feel Dutch and the whole process of naturalization focused on whether he won had developed the right feeling and understanding of what does it mean to be Dutch a third approach is more ethnic ethnic or religious it doesn't it's not it doesn't exist nowadays in Europe but it does exist for instance in Israel or Japan that is about ethnicity on religion one cannot just become a citizen unless you are born as a citizen or you change your polymer polymer adèle characteristics and EU law and I think that's so that's a big challenge that EU law in international law at least when it comes to the cultural logic model is silent it doesn't say whether culture is legitimate in the process of selecting immigrants but is the first one the second point is about global citizenship let me tell you something after World War two there was an American peace activist who established a concept of world citizenship and also registry to become award citizen it didn't succeed but nowadays I think it and that's actually the focus of my current project that the concept of global citizenship can be ended not instead of national citizenship but as a complementary dimension to national citizenship a recent BBC polls from last year shows that in 20 surveyed country 60% of the people especially the young generation consider themselves first and foremost as global citizens rather than national citizen I think that's amazing and there is a lot of kind of goodwill that we can challenge into a new concept in international law international relations of global citizenship we also have the technology to create such a concept today and this would be or can be a complementary dimension to national citizenship and not instead of and they're just a food for thought to do in the future yeah well maybe for the sake of completeness there is a false approach to to citizenship which I would call the classicist approach and that like in the old Rome in the ancient Rome it links citizenship to a set of rights and responsibilities beauties that make up a citizen like a duty to serve in the army the right to vote in the elections the duty to pay taxes etc etc and we know that Roman citizens were not chosen on on on an ethnic basis they they were the people who accepted the the rights and the responsibilities and and that is increasingly problem today when many countries including some EU countries treat citizenship as a commodity to be sold of marketed or or and that that makes it increasingly hard to to differentiate between the global citizen and and the local citizen because some people have multiple citizenships and the global city G or the world citizenship on the top of it well I think deep at heart I'm a classicist but please yeah but I will I will continue where where my colleague stopped I also agree and I think that national identities will will be important always will be important but could not be predominant how I see that let's say that approach and that that possibility if common and global institutions will work better and deliver more in that case you will have predominant some other other identity and that's the way how I see that we can Seoul let's say this kind of of raising nationalism populism as in something like that thank you Loretta just a couple of remarks about identity I think that you know if there were a button on this table that you could just I could just push and it would erase everybody's identity and people into cosmopolitan humanitarians I push it straight away there's no doubt that that is sort of like the ideal form of liberal identification and sense of normative commitment and belief but but human beings are just not hardwired that way and there will always be identities and I think that you know even liberal Cosmopolitan's who believe themselves to be beyond having an identity often have other identities right people have party parties an identities people have identities in terms of an attachment to a city and you know I think the big problem is not that there are parts of the world where people have really really strong identities and in global cosmopolitan city as people have overcome identity I think the problem is that there's an inequality in the recognition of identities now I was born in London I grew up in London when I switch on the TV I see a world that perfectly matches the world that I grew up in prosperous diverse multicultural multi-ethnic so I feel a sense of recognition I am recognized on my identity or pride to be from London or similar city is recognized when you switch on the TV but but somebody who's living in a city in eastern Germany or northern England or the American Midwest feels the sense of exclusion because what they see does not represent the world around that does not represent their identity and that it is that which creates I think this kind of toxic toxic reaction yeah Vaslav Havel had a concept a model of identity that I would call the onion identity model he believed that identity is comprised of layers starting with the personal layer the family layer the town and city layer the country layer and then the global level of identity and that the problem or the task is to reconcile them in harmony rather than put them in conflict against one another it's a it's a big ask but ideally that's the way I believe it should be we have about five minutes five minutes so that's the opportunity for the last immortal words by the panelists in the opposite order from what we started and I then have to make or try to make a summary in three points of what we were discussing with will take me about 30 seconds so they are the take out of at least in my point of view is on the empirical level that there is a global migration global identity crisis at least Western identity crisis and then there is a normative question if we accept this premise what are we going to do with it and I try to offer a solution or a way of thought which goes global into the concept of global citizenship as a complementary dimension but also recognizes the importance of the local of the particular by protecting some version of majority culture this is the concept of cultural majority right yep well I've been thinking a lot about politics and globalization and identity and and and and I think it's most important and I and I I I try to inspire people to to find ways to get directly involved in in politics go into politics join a political party start your own political party and I think it's it's a I think it's the right thing to do and I think it's the very very important thing to do and and especially people who feel that they don't belong in politics and they should not go in politics they should not definitely go academics scientists artists everybody should try to go into politics that's what I would like to say thank you Anna yeah I will conclude by let's say agreeing with what Slava Havel concept model of identity I think that we should fight for our values we can have many identities at the same time which cannot be confronted that can be in harmony and that's that model I also let's say that's the model that I see that can work for everyone I would like to invite you all to think about that and to try to use that as a good model for having better future than we have let's say then we have now thank you and Roberto I think I just want to say that you know when you're living inside a bubble it's very difficult to see that you're inside a bubble and I think that up until 2016 we and I mean liberal cosmopolitan elites have not been aware of the extent to which we have been inside something of a bubble and now that that bubble has burst it really falls upon us to reconstruct new inclusive identities that can bring together all citizens into a constructive and non-toxic form of politics all right now the conclusions if I took an easy way out so I would make my three points globalization is complex identities complex and populism is also complex but I'll try to do it a little more at the risk of of some people not agreeing with me the first point would be globalization has it's good and bad aspects but not everything that is wrong with democracy and populism at present can be blamed on it second globalised societies increasingly share common features but there does not make identity in all its manifestations go away automatically and third the various aspects and layers of identity should not stay in the way of shared identity at the supranational or global level okay thank you very much [Applause]

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