Excluding men from comics through ‘visual ideology’

Excluding men from comics through ‘visual ideology’

hey how you doing this is RJ today I'm going to talk about comics as a visual medium because in my last video I covered a webcast where you had two women who were representing Marvel and I would say Marvel Comics more specifically and they were talking about comics as a visual medium and I'll give you the context of what they were saying you had Kelly sue Taconic who is the person who created the current iteration of Captain Marvel and she was saying that comics used to be for girls as well and that with the advent of the direct market you saw comic shops popping up and comic shops were controlled primarily by men and men started gatekeeping comics because they controlled the comic shops and they pushed women and girls out of reading comics now this is her actual argument I'm not being dramatic if you want to go listen to my previous video I'll link it at the end where she says all this but she makes some further points and those further points are this number one women and girls interact with a visual medium of comics in the exact same way that men and boys do number two what they are doing now to get women and girls back into comics is not any kind of revolt it is a restoration of the way things used to be and number three this restoration does not exclude men from comics in any way now I am going to show you in this video that her third point that men are not being excluded from comics in the way that they are currently constructing them is absolutely wrong and the reason why it's wrong is because her number one premise which is the fact that men and women interact with the visual medium of comics in the exact same way he is also fundamentally wrong now I did a video a couple of weeks ago where I talked about the feminization of comics and how there was this feminine color palette for comics and how this use of this feminized color palette was actually driving men away from comics and by the way at the same time teaching their quote-unquote progressive ideology in a visual way now when I said that I got more than one person in the comments saying well you seem to be wearing your tinfoil hat today and I don't fault anybody from actually thinking that but this is an actual field of study by the way now what I studied primarily was how Western thought changed over time and I did that through history and philosophy and political theory and part of the political theory one was to examine the medium by which ideas are given to people and how that medium affects how they are perceived by these people so this is exactly what I'm talking about when I talk about their choice of colors being feminized and actually promoting their ideology this is part of an entire field of study which is under the umbrella field of political theory most of the time so in order to argue against what this woman is saying first I'm going to show you a little clip that encapsulate s– her argument and it's only very short and I apologize for having to assault you with this video but I'm going to have to do so because what I usually do is just read the statement from a podcast but I can't do that with this because I simply cannot reproduce the dismissive tone in her voice and the way that she is using her language I just simply can't so I'm gonna play that clip for you right now not really natural visual storytellers I can explain fashion that's just nonsense you know we're not I don't have like female eyes you know we're visual we're visual storytellers or you know so although that was very short it encapsulates the main body of her argument and I'm going to use simple logic and empirical evidence from science to show you why everything she says here is incorrect and how this actually excludes men from reading comics which she fervently denies in the later part of this webcast so first off she is presenting a straw man argument she is saying that she listened to young men talk about women not being visual storytellers now I have never heard this claim ever before I have made the claim and there then other people have made the claim that men are better visual storytellers and there's scientific evidence to back this up by the way I'm going to try to link some scientific articles or at the very least articles that talk about these scientific points in the description so that you can go and look these things up so that you don't have to take my word for it and you know I'm not talking out of my hat when I give you all these points so we know from science that men are inherently attracted to the visual more than women are and because men are more attracted to the visual than women are they interact with the visual more than women do and because they have more experience interacting with visual mediums because of this innate desire to interact more with the visual then they become better visual storytellers because no one is saying that women can't be visual storytellers no one is saying that women can't be good visual storytellers men are better visual storytellers because they simply have more experience with visual storytelling because biologically they focus more on the visual than women do so right off the bat she's presenting a straw man argument one that doesn't actually exist and then she goes and knocks down the straw man to try to make it look like her point is correct and right off the bat she is being dishonest with what she is saying now number two she's trying to prove that women are just as good visual storytellers as men by using the example of fashion now logically this is just a non sequitur this makes no sense whatsoever her basic argument can be broken down into the following premise a visual storytelling employs a visual premise B fashion employs a visual therefore fashion is the same as visual storytelling this kind of argument makes no sense it's called a non sequitur argument it makes no sense and I'll show you why I'll use the same form of argumentation to prove the following premise a a man has two legs premise be a kangaroo has two legs therefore a man is a kangaroo we all know this is ridiculous this is a non sequitur argument but this is the exact same form of the argument that she is using to try to prove that fashion is the same as visual storytelling and women are good at fashion and therefore they're good storytellers this makes no sense whatsoever because you can have two things and they can share an accident that is to say equality these two things are visual storytelling and fashion and they share a quality of using the visual but that in no way means or implies that fashion is the exact same as visual storytelling and since that little statement has been knocked down then you can't claim that women are good visual storytellers because of fashion it makes no sense it's non sequitur now let's move on to the other part of our argument which is she does not see things with women's eyes and she sees this as ridiculous however science does not agree with her not only our men's brains constructed biologically different from women's brains but the eyes of a man and a woman are actually quite different you have these cells within eyes called M cells and P cells and men have more M cells and women have more P cells and they are in the retina of the eye so as soon as light actually hits the retina it filters out that light and interprets the visual in a different way so yes as a woman you do see things different than a man does yes you do have women's eyes and men do have men's eyes so what these M cells do for men is that they are large cells and they are distributed all over the retina and what they do is that they help men filter out color noise so that they can concentrate on tracking movements of objects because women have P cells more in their eyes than men do these P cells are concentrated around the center of the retina they are smaller cells and they are responsible for identifying objects analyzing texture and for perceiving color this is exactly what they're for so yes women do have women's eyes and men do have men's eyes and they perceive things like color in a different way and again this is scientifically been proven through studies for the last fifty years and by the way this makes complete sense anthropologically because you have men who are the hunters and if you're a man and you're out in the forest or the jungle hunting your eyes need to filter out all of the color noise so that you can see movement so a you can hunt something down to stay alive and be you don't get hunted down and get killed you need those M cells that are scattered all across your retina so that you have a good vision going forward that you have B good peripheral vision and C you can filter out all the color noise so that you can perceive all of this movement so you don't die and you actually hunt something down so that you can stay alive and eat but with women they are mothers because they're biologically set to have children and so since they are set to have children they're also set to care for children and in being able to see more colors than men can and perceive those colors better when they look at a child they can tell slight variations in skin color and say oh my child is sick I need to do something about it right away this is what is going on this is why men have different eyes and women if you ever wondered why when you were a boy your mother looked at you and said you're white as a sheet you must be sick and you went in and looked at yourself in the mirror and go I don't see what you're talking about why did that happen because your mother can see more colors as a woman then you could as a boy if you ever wondered why your girlfriend or your wife come up to you and said no no dear that's eggshell white this is white over here we want white not eggshell white why can she do that because she can perceive more colors than you can quite simply men's eyes are specifically set to concentrate on primary colors and filter out all of the color noise besides the primary colors whereas women's eyes are set so that they can take in all of these different kinds of colors and see the gradation between one and the other now to move on to the very last part of our argument it's simply the division in her voice you'll notice how she just dismisses these ideas but I've just shown to you that there has been science for 50 years to show that men you have different eyes and women and women do have different eyes than men so what is going on here she has run across this argument that she does not like and she is going to argue against and in that intervening time between when she first heard this argument and this little webcast where she argues against it did she actually go and look up anything to prove her point to show that it is wrong well there's only two options here number one she didn't bother to go look anything up because if she did she would know scientifically that yes she has different eyes or number two she actually went and looked things up found the scientific evidence and is strictly ignoring it and by the way this woman Kelly sue Connick she is a declared intersectional feminist and feminists deny science all the time there is this thing that feminists actually get together to do at very least annually they have it scheduled they all get together online and they do what is called an editing party they go on sites like Wikipedia and find all the articles that scientifically show that there is a biological difference between men and women and they edit all of these articles to erase all of the scientific data and to replace it with the ideological statement that the only reason there is a difference between men and women is societal is because society has oppressed women and has elevated men I'll actually put an article in the description if I can find one to show you yeah this is what they do they are clear deniers of science they specifically go out of their way to deny science so I wouldn't put it past her if she actually knew these things and she's not only ignoring them but making fun of them in a way to show other people that they don't actually exist now let's look at all of that which I have just said and apply it to the medium of comics so we look at comics and we know that comics employ two different kinds of storytelling there is normal textual storytelling and there's also a visual storytelling so let's be fair and just say there's 50/50 for each it's 50% textual and 50% visual now we know from science that men are more attracted to the visual than women are and we know also from empirical data that women are more attracted to the textual than I would say it would probably be 6040 but you could push it to 75 25 so men are concentrating on the visual 65 to 75 percent of the time where women only focus on the visual 40 percent to 25 percent of the time so the visual in comic books is more important to men than it is to women now in addition to this we also know through science that women and men perceive colors differently men concentrate on primary colors women can see more than primary colors and by the way the way that men see he is concentrated around the tracking of movements so there is a unique spot here held by comic books because you have things like video games and television they can use all of those colors because they're a medium where you have a moving visual and because that visual is moving men can interact and see those objects that are being portrayed better because there is movement so they don't mind so much if there is this feminine color palette but with the in comics if you have this feminine color palette which expands way beyond your primary colors men are simply visually confused because their eyes are biologically not set up to deal with all of this especially in a static way where there is no movement so what happens when they construct comics in the way that she is talking about here let's concentrate again on this male color palette as opposed to the female color palette if you have your older comics they were just primary colors and men interacted with those primary colors because that's the way men's eyes actually work but the thing is that women could also interact with these comics because women can see these primary colors just the same as men can but they also perceive all of these other different kinds of gradations of colors so women can perceive what men can when they are looking at a comic book that employs the primary color palette now they might think of it as boring but they can still interact with it but if you take your female color palette and apply it to a comic your females will say hey that's really good I like all of these colors but the men will not be able to interact with it because their eyes are simply not set up to distinguish between that many colors and everything just looks like mud blending together so someone might say well who cares you know women deserve to have their own kinds of comics as well but the entire point is that this makes absolutely no sense in trying to put out a product in all of these things that we have just gone over because you have this color palette if you make it for women women might find it more exciting but men will simply not be able to interact with it if you put it in the primary color palette which attracts men men and women can actually interact with it women might see it as a little boring but they can still interact with it whereas if you have the opposite men cannot interact with it in the same way and since the visual we know is more concentrated on by the men than the women it really doesn't make any sense to put in this female color palette because if you have these women and they're only concentrating on the visual twenty-five to forty percent of the time you are not going to attract that many more women because of a female color palette but if you do that and put in this female color palette since men are attracted to the visual sixty to seventy-five percent of the time that is what they're looking for that's what they're trying to interpret you're going to drive them away and more of those men will be driven away then the women that are attracted because even if you assumed that the readership of comics is 50/50 male and female if you put in a female color palette to attract more females the number of females that you're going to attract is always going to be less than the number of men you're going to drive away because men concentrate more on the visual then the women do and yet still these women who are making these comics want to employ these kinds of things in the construction of the medium of comics why well because they ignore things like science and it shouldn't be any surprise to us that they would ignore things like scientific facts because they ignore the economic statistics that are sitting in front of them to tell them that these comics aren't selling and they also ignore the statements of their fan base saying this is what we want so if they are ignoring those things like what their fan base actually wants and the statistical numbers that tell them that their comics aren't selling there's no wonder why they're ignoring science as well but the bigger picture to this is the fact that when you get these kind of will call them progressive minded people and they're thinking about how to construct a comic book when they have questions about what will sell the best they ignore the scientific they ignore the statistical they ignore what their fan base actually is telling them that they want the only thing that actually answers the questions for them that they raised to themselves is their ideology and we can clearly see this here with Kelly sue Taconic in her ridicule of the idea that there is any difference between men and women because this is one of the main tenants of feminist ideology that there is absolutely no difference whatsoever even biologically between a man and a woman and this is the fundamental core of what Kelly sue Taconic is saying here there is absolutely no difference between men and women whatsoever her ideology is claiming this and she is putting that at the center of her argument of this is why we construct comics and the medium the visual medium of comics in this way because we assume that there is absolutely no difference between men and women and therefore there's no way this can be driving away men because men and women can interact with a visual medium of comic books in the exact same way because our ideology teaches us that they are exactly the same and so you know I don't think that there is a concentrated effort where you have all of the colors from Marvel getting together and having a meeting and saying well let's use this feminine color palette so we can drive men away no it's nothing like that it's simply that whenever a question arises in their mind the only thing that is going to answer that question for them is their ideology so if I've given you anything new to think about hit like hit the shield in the lower right hand corner of your screen to subscribe and leave me a comment tell me what you think about all this all right I'll see you later bye

44 thoughts on “Excluding men from comics through ‘visual ideology’

  1. I have several forms of partial "male-only" color blindness that are inherited from your mother, but only activate if you have a Y chromosome… (Green protonopia, red-green dueternopia) and a form that effects men and women, "weak" dimming tritonopia… I can LITERALLY see what they've done based on what i can NO LONGER SEE xP they've almost completely removed any color a woman has even a slight statistical chance of not seeing, and now over rely on shades of red/green/blue/purple/orange that even a male that has no clue they have a form of partial color blindness has a 17-80% chance of not being able too perceive… Based just on the most common shades of green, there's a 24% chance you can't perceive the panels properly… But ONLY if you have a Y chromosome…

  2. This deranged woman is classic example of accepting opinions and relying on emotion vs. truth and proven scientific facts!

  3. Mind blown. I've collected comics for 35 years. I notice a lack of appeal with new books. Had discussions with friends about the same experience. We collect old comics primarily. Story, art and colors are more appealing. Too much political agendas going on in modern comics for my taste. Ladies have at it. Unfortunately not too many women interested in comics to keep the industry afloat.

  4. See I always thought the color shift was due to hiring a bunch of untalented people based on their identity and the shift in ink and papers used for the printing process (and a general desire to get away from the use of primary colors to be more 'gritty'). Should've known with this bunch that it ran much deeper than that.

    This is why I only trades of pre SJW comics now.

  5. I am glad you tackled this subject, I thought it was just me that had a problem with the drab color scheme in comics.

  6. I'd love to subscribe without having to go to a shop. Tired of going to 4 shops and none carry the series I'm looking for.

  7. Fashion……. What percentage of the great fashion designers in the world have been men compared to women……… I rest my point…

  8. "Men were gatekeeping comics because they controlled the comic chops". And yet, when women walk into a Multiplayer computer game, guys just start handing them stuff. I've hung out in a few comic shops, and never once did I see a guy try to make a woman feel unwelcome or uncomfortable. Maybe the women felt that way, but I guarantee you, they guys were trying to get her to like them!

  9. I do think the classic comics looked more dynamic in their color palette and style vs today's more realism.

    My opinion comics are escapism and dynamic is more akin to that idea.

  10. I don't think the main problem is in the color palette. According science, I'm an oddball in the female world, I rely on the visual even more than most men, for me the visual stimuli is in the 90 – 95% vs. text. On top of that I have a condition called tetrachromacy, which gives me the ability to see more shades of yellow than the average female eye – so I can see a bit more colors. And even with that advantage I dislike the look of these new pseudo-comics. I really enjoy black and white comics, maybe it's a thing of habit, but most comics I read in the past were black and white. And when you look at masterfully drawn black and white images it doesn't matter how many colors can you see, even the color blind can enjoy those. As an artist I think the problem is in the lack of inking skill and color theory mastery. The biggest problem with the visual appeal with the comics in question is the wrong line weight, contrast, and color values. Notice the variation of line thickness in the old comics, which is beautiful, also the contrast of light vs. dark, as well as the contrast between characters and background is high – which makes appealing visuals. In the new comics the lines are so fine and random that it creates a chaotic look, and very often the contrast between the characters and background is non existent, if you turn them black and white, it will become a giant muddy gray blurry mess. Muddled colors and bad lineart does not work even in static artworks (portraits, scenery and such) let alone in comics with a lot of dynamic action scenes. Guess that's why these pseudo comics have so little dynamic scenes. I also dislike when I see an ambiguous masculine female like captain marvel – is it a man is it a woman – I hate when I can't tell right away what I'm looking at. Sorry for my English, not a native speaker.

  11. You can do visual storytelling through clothes and fashion but that's more of character design basics then the whole of visual storytelling the only time I've seen fashion tell story is with armor for Destiny 2 there a lot of cases where the armor hint and tells The Lure of the universe

  12. They're trying to "restore" something that arguably never existed. And offending the actual marketplace in the process.

  13. I mean no offense, but I'm a comic book artist and colorist. I've worked both for Marvel & DC and I've never, ever, been given any specific instructions of any kind regarding composition and color, and neither I've seen my color work altered in none of my covers or promo artwork or whatever. And, here comes the "no offense" part, I can tell you straight and clear that, outside of whatever some specific creator wants to do – and whether the editor, aware of it or otherwise, allows to do – there's no conspiracy of any kind at work here. Believe me, I know.

  14. My understanding was men and gay men utterly dominated the field of fashion design, and feminazis decried that as well.

  15. Thank you, very interesting. It amazes me how soft today's critics (Zack etc) are on today's art. Just look at these examples! The older art has a palpable "zing" that the later stuff cannot match, not just in the color element, but in the dynamism of the arrangements. I grew up in that older period, and we just took the quality of the art for granted; we were blessed.

    By the way, at 3:59: Cap: "privilages". Who said they could edit in the old days?

  16. That's right. I guess women were always the victims of toxic masculinity and will never be equal until they get the upper hand through toxic feminism.

  17. This thing about colors explains a lot. I used to read mostly Marvel in my teens/young adult life, but when I came back to comics in my adult life (still am) somewhat didn't felt 'connected' to Marvel at all, preferring DC most of the time.

  18. I believe men interact with these comics all the time … they pick them up from the shelf, flip through them, and decide "Not for me," and then return it to the shelf. Unpurchased.

  19. The first metoo movement is women who insist they were a part of something when they were a tiny part of it. A few years ago there were several articles about how women have contributed to battles in history. I assumed it was a coordinated effort because a lot came out so close together.

    They all had the same theme, in a battle with hundreds of thousands of men there were two women on the battlefield and that proves women have equally bared the burden of fighting in human history.

    Yeah, there were females who liked comics. No one had a problem with women reading comics, but they were a tiny minority which is fine. What Marxists think is since women are half of the population then women should be half the audience of comic books. That's like saying women should be half the hobby of some niche hobby like model train collecting.

    I'm sure there are plenty of female Warhammer 40k players, but it's mostly a male hobby. That doesn't make it sexist, as men are crying "why aren't women spending a ton of money on Warhammer 40K models and learning the complex rules! Women are girlbabies because they're afraid of being into a hobby seen as a male hobby!"

  20. In the examples you used I found it much easier to distinguish the backgrounds from characters and the action easier in the newer comics. They looked way better. Maybe I have "female eyes". Not trashing your whole argument, just saying the colouring in new comics is superior to the old.

  21. Reminds me of playing "Girl Ghost Story Bingo", and having to drink every time they go off on tangents of superfluous details like who owns the house, describing the arrangement of a room, family history, etc.

  22. I think we identified the problem. We have people in Marvel that think they can write comics like a shirt. Fashion being the same thing as visual storytelling. She's a fucking joke.

  23. I get the gist of what you're saying here and I can definitely buy that men and women think differently, and perceive visual data differently. But are you saying that it's the pure amount of color variation shown that makes men disinterested, or is it the specific choices of using certain muted colors that has that effect? As I'm an illustrator myself, I would think that as long as strong primary colors are used effectively and muted colors are used sparingly, one can still create very potent visuals without it necessaily looking like "mud".
    For reference, several of the older panels shown in this video do also include areas with muted purples and pinks, even though the lack of variation in the pallette indeed makes them appear more distinctive. Perhaps one simply should limit the amount of gradients, where colors bleed over and into each other, to generate maximum appeal? Regardless, mixing science with art is fascinating! Good video, once again.

  24. Wow, this was so interesting, thank you! I hadn't come across that scientific difference between how men and women see colors before. Very interesting. One thing came to mind that you didn't address that I'm curious about is that I think you've said previously that women interact more emotionally than men do in order to connect with media.

    I'm wondering if their more nuanced perception of color doesn't trigger a vital, emotional reaction? If they're bored, as you say, by primary colors won't that then mean they're being shut out of comics because they can't emotionally engage? It sounds like there should be an acknowledgement of the differences and have two different comic issues, male and female. That would be so interesting, to see the same stories done simultaneously for a female and a male audience.

  25. women are like that, they always said comics where nerd bs meanwhile she have fun with the football jokes, once comics becomes popular and start making billions of dollars they say "we where comics fans this entire time tee hee"

  26. You might want to look at Simon Kinberg comments regarding Dark Phoenix. He said going forward all Superhero movies should be Feminist movies…tinfoil hat or Directors/Studios charting a narrative/ideology

  27. Anyone who has ever taken a color theory class (required in any graphic design or fine art major) would know that your statement about feminine color palettes is entirely accurate.

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