Deal Hudson on Donald Trump and the Rise of Populism

Deal Hudson on Donald Trump and the Rise of Populism



okay I think we're live I'm speaking with deal Hudson the author political activist professor editor of crisis magazine I think deals very familiar with Catholics and Christians but maybe other people haven't aren't familiar with him he's the author of onward Christian soldiers about the role of Catholics and Christians in political life and I thought I'd begin deal just by asking you kind of what you've been doing lately and if I if I summarized your career correctly well not really but that's okay I was publisher and editor of crisis from 2019 95 to 2013 it's now in the hands of some folks up at Sophia pres I wanted to move on to do other things I since I left crisis I have started a online magazine called the Christian review which is not limited to Catholics at all and also started a radio show on the Ave Maria radio network al church and culture and I we're just getting entering into our fifth year doing that I've written I write regularly for Newsmax and for other publications my political stuff goes in USA Today and you know places like that I was involved in the Trump campaign in organizing the Catholic outreach so which got done and otherwise I'm wanting to start a new book but I'm waiting for my dime own to tell me what that's gonna be well that's very good well you're the perfect person to talk to them because I'm I'm very interested in the whole Christian response to the Trump campaign and what it means for America and what it means this coming year and you and I talked about two years ago I think when one of my books came out and we were talking about the Trump campaign and what it meant and neither one of us were sure if he was gonna win or not and later a similar later interviews I got more and more confident that he was going to win and I wasn't ever opposed to him I ended up voting for Rand Paul cuz I'm in California it was just a protest vote didn't matter anyway so I I thought Rand was the most gentlemanly of everybody the most presidential but I knew he had like 1% of the of the vote so you didn't have a chance but I voted for him anyway is there kind of a write-in candidate but so now we are where we are and not the way I kind of see it and I want to get your reaction to this is that the campaign and even after the campaign after the election sort of revealed really dramatically for the first time just how deep the fault lines are in America I think they've been all kind of people weren't really aware of that and during the campaign and the subsequent just the open hostility of the media towards Trump and the whole academic establishment and everyone it really clarified for a lot of people just how dramatic the divide is in America between different groups and I think Americans ordinary Americans for the first time really saw that there really is an elite establishment that is hell-bent on transforming the country I think the whole controversy over transgender bathrooms and all that they kind of pushed the outside of the envelope and that kind of revealed to people for the first time just how radically just how radical some of the the agenda really is and that galvanized so-called red state America for the first time I kind of woke up from going to barbecues and doing Little League and just living their normal lives and now suddenly they've been radicalized and they're the kind of the wolves been pulled over there or pulled back from their eyes and they can see things as they are so now we're in this situation of radical division divisiveness in America and I wanted to get your reaction to that if you think that's true ss you've been in politics for so long you might have a better perspective on that I think you're right Robert I think the the fault lines were never more clearly revealed than during that campaign but even more so after the campaign because all the stuff that happened during the campaign was to be expected it was one of the toughest in modern politics if not the toughest also for after the most surprising victory since what before Eisenhower and but what really has revealed the fault lines is what you mentioned about how the media has treated president ever since he was inaugurated I mean this has really turned the media in away from being a reporting platform to be an advocacy platform dealing particularly an anti-trump advocacy platform very good example has been going on the last week when the Democrats floated the story about Trump firing Mueller yeah yeah and Trump keeps saying I'm not gonna fire Mueller but this story keeps coming up again every day I mean it's the Democrats are trying to manufacture something that is an explicitly denied over and over again but they keep it going and this is just the irrational page or if you judge it by the standard of what a journalist is supposed to be not just irrational it's intentional so yes the fault lines have been clearly delineated and I think another thing happened during this election is that the folks at the grassroots found that their use of social media and these really powerful and what we saw in this election was the collective use of social media by conservative was able to to circulate information responses opinions in spite of the mmm the major networks having dominant control over the traditional platforms the little lady in Ohio who grows vegetables and takes care of her grandkids and it's outraged as a result of Obama eight years could find it on Facebook and actually communicate with people who believe just like she did and just as passionately as she did and all the junk that was getting thrown at her fry CNN ABC and so forth she could get the real story in real time from this whole social media yes I think I agree with you completely and that that's a separate issue we could talk about maybe more like later but the whole notion that the the social media tech giants are waking up to the fact that a lot of their users don't agree with their politics and now there's this active campaign I don't know if you know about this to to get rid of people off the social media sites another Angela Merkel allegedly to flat-out told Mark Zuckerberg that that he had to do something about all the communications on Facebook that was criticizing her immigration policies in Germany and he said you know I'll take care of it and they've been kind of doing it ever since that they've you know the whole there's been accusations that the algorithms are pushing up or pushing down conservative oriented news stories people are being banned from YouTube if they are have too radical of opinions and so on and they're using so-called hate speech laws to get rid of people that just voicing normal conservative political opinions and people are being D what do they call that D check marked on Twitter so they are D verified on Twitter and they're starting you know with the really radical fringe groups but the feeling is is that they're gonna move the window so that so they start with a really genuine extremist that you're rid of them but then they start going for more conservative voices just to try and get rid of those people as you say because I don't know if you know this but YouTube is totally dominated by a conservative political opinion it's like the talk radio of today and and the people that run YouTube don't like it well you know the horse I think is already out of the barn as regards with Merkel asked us a bird to do here's the difference between this year and say three years ago people on social media didn't know what a a logarithmic watch they didn't understand that stories could be prioritized in terms of their visibility or stories could be virtually quashed at will in the last three years and especially during the campaign the great intellectual awakening about how social media is manipulated by its ownership now that's what really gave the rise in parts of the fake news thing because people realized that the news was being fake in the sense that certain stories were being put ahead of other stories and some stories were being for being left in the dark so now that they're trying to correct it by their understanding of correct people on social media are are know what they're doing they can they themselves can play the system from their side the individual side is from the collective side like the de Flore we call ourselves adorable right yes you should have been at deplorable but we can talk about that later and and now they know it's being done through them it's not gonna have the kind of impact it would have had three or four years ago well yeah but they can always just you know we move you from your site they D monetize videos on YouTube they ban they can shadow ban you know in other words you don't even know you're banned you just don't show up there's a lot of tricks these tech guys can do not just filling with algorithms so the stories are but they can they as I said they can make a video not appear and so there are people that I that famous add that pro-life ad that just simply got rid of because it's hate speech it's it's pro-life so I'm there is a fear of that but Robert Robert but but Robert let me interrupt can you say I think that they will it will work two ways either they will clip sort of that the friends of the kind of opinions they don't want and they'll block and cut off or sort of you know group it at the algorithm if they go no further it's not going to have much of an impact because they know if they go further people will quit their platform and go elsewhere or that other else other platforms will be invented created and at at the end of the day suck neither Zuckerberg or any other wants to ruin their business you don't want to kill the Golden Goose they don't so they know they can only go so far and then people will simply like people stop watching NFL football who ever played see that would happen thank you sure you help well first how bifurcated we are as you said but also how fragile relationships have become and I mean by relationships your relationships with the institution's the celebrities the shows and so forth that you are fond of that you you know take time out to take you know kind of to enjoy those relationships are extremely fragile yes yeah that was a very I was a big I wake i opening moment for them I think that the whole NFL NFL gate that a multi-billion dollar very American institution could be threatened I I watched those videos of people burning their seasons tickets and and things like that hey do they do they know what they've done you don't do that these owners have any clue what they've done in Green Bay yes let me go back a little bit and talk about the deplorable z– because because I know you were a professor of philosophy or at least you've written books on Maritain and everything and of philosophy it's okay so I'm very interested in the whole notion that trouble Trump in this whole populist uprising around the world and and believe it or not I was kind of a paleo deplorable in the sense that I've always been sort of attracted to Pat Buchanan's writings I've read him he's considered the art arch deplorable a proto deplorable and because he was one of the few voices that was outside the Republic rat consensus about free trade and globalization and immigration and everything like that he had an alternative viewpoint and the only one I've ever heard that was for example in favor of protectionism and I and some of the arguments he made I had never heard before so I actually went and tried to research it you know what what are the arguments in favor of protectionism you know and I couldn't find any I mean there's so little written you know about protect because the consensus has been the consensus for so long that there's very little written about and it could be on each purely economic terms protectionism doesn't work but I couldn't find anything about it beyond Pat's books and so I'd like to ask you about whether that criticism is true that really in the post-war America the Democrat Republican divide is really minimal and that there's this dual party consensus not on social issues but on economic and and other issues and there we really have had a very narrow a political conversation unlike in Europe and that Trump and the whole populist uprising represents just a radical explosion of of the consensus and new ideas are coming to for and this popular revolt that's sweeping the country sweeping the world really is is something very new and very different well first of all you go to Europe Oh some you know some off often as I do and I'll just say that in Europe is the narrow its political conversation that I ever have or is in Europe because there's only one way you know that form of socialism that exists in most countries over there and so that's kind of like a rapper telling a classical music one where you need to widen your perspective you don't like classical rap no that's always in Europe three times this year playing golf and when they found out I was a trump supporter I mean it was just you were facing the furies because I was mostly Lent and so up let's go back though next time I see Pat Buchanan and I'm gonna tell him that you called him the John the Baptist – trumpets Christ oh absolutely and then I'm not the only one that says that obviously you know he's been considered that yeah okay trouble ism is just Pat Buchanan really ha no one put it in theological terms Robert answer okay so you know to go back to the question of where are the divides and other Republicans and Democrats close when in the 1970s and 80s especially under Reagan when the Republican Party embraced social conservatism and of course that began as anti-communism and then it became a kind of patriotism and eventually it was opposed to the ARA and then it was opposed to abortion after 1973 once the social issues became a part of the GOP a contentious part but a solid part I mean really Goldwater's a good figure I remember the story of one of the old aristocratic Connecticut Sam families or the Republicans at the San Francisco convention that a nominated Goldwater harem one of them it was either one of the Dulles Azure you know one of the Buckley's or somebody like that they looked right and says I don't know any of these people and ever since the Goldwater days you know the Republican Party has been this sort of contentious combination of economic conservatives right social conservatives and sort of tradition conservatives if you you know call them that and which is kind of the James Burnham and you know the famous American conservative philosophers and critics so that means to me you can't make that judgment based on where the two parties are just economically and look at it the other way after McGovern reorganized the Democratic Party and said minority quotas and all the committee's there was a huge turnover of internal leadership there was a social agenda embraced by the Democrats which for a long long time has simply been feminism anti you know pro-abortion anti pro-lifers and so forth that has evolved into a fight over immigration ankylo and climate change I mean I'm completely convinced they embrace climate change because it was an issue of such magnitude that it could defuse the abortion advantage of the pro-life advantage that the Republican Party has and so they could be pro-life in their climate change way while we were being pro-life and are save the unborn way but my point being I am NOT going to answer that question based upon just an economic judgments because they are closer there some are put I think Trump has made the Republican Party less close I mean Trump doesn't come to the table with the assumption that all money we earn belongs to the government before it belongs to us which is what you're seeing in this response to the tax bill the assumption behind all this criticism is how dare they assume the money is theirs in the first place the money is ours belongs to us to pass her out so hey I think the parties have become more distinct be the Democrats have their own social agenda call you know social liberalism or whatever you want to call it and finally the what we're seeing here is the really deep roots now that the Christian voter various groups of Christian voters evangelical voters socially conservative Catholic voters Mormons you know now growing number of Jewish voters rootsy put in the Republican Party the party was not going to nominate a Mitt Romney type he's not going to nominate another gayly you know if you know they're they're going to it was it was a logical step from the Tea Party of 2012 from that remember that moment generally a horizontal to Donald Trump now you may say that the Tea Party with another emanation of Pat Buchanan and then you watch well let's just let's just focus you that the parties have become more distinct because the Democrats have gone to just out of their minds to the left embracing or more radical agenda but within the Democratic and party itself isn't it isn't it true that we're seeing a return to America first ISM in the sense of a revival of nationalism and this populist revolt is also sweeping Europe to some degree because the people themselves are are fed up with the euro crap mentality that you know and so is this movement to nationalism is opposed to globalization and internationalism that was good for international corporations is probably good for America that people are now questioning that in a radical way and that's a change is that true you know when the nationalism become a dirty word I mean if nationalism is going forever be identified with Hitler's nationalism or Mussolini's nationalism nationalism to me only mean that you're proud of your country that as a citizen of that country you do what you can to uphold it to defend it to build it from within if you want to make nationalism automatically a form of extremism then we got to have another word yeah and I will agree with you but there's a lot of people who say that you know look for example on immigration that most countries in the world like for instance I used to tease my children I was moving to Australia and then they pointed out to me that I couldn't because after age 45 unless you have 20 million dollars they won't let you in because they say you will be an economic drain on our society and our people our number one criteria for admitting immigrants in Australia is what's good for Australia not what's good for you and that's perfectly okay and that's what most countries do Canada has a point system again it has a point system and I actually passed the Canadian point system I looked and they want to know you speak English they want to know if you have college education if you speak French you get extra points because they are bilingual society if your wife went to college or your spouse where have to college you get extra points and it's like 30 points to be accepted so so nationalism impacts policy on a wide range of things but naturally it impacted naturally yes of course the government what did women suggest to do to protect their citizenry yes weird complete agreement but so a lot of people would say that you know the whole Angela Merkel pro-immigration internationalist agenda they didn't bother asking the people of Europe if they minded a million people from a different culture and religion moving into their little Bavarian villages and now it's a massive reaction to that and I you're right I go to Europe regularly usually twice a year of France usually one trip in Germany another and in this time I was in Ireland and the divide between what the politicians insist on and if you oppose them you're a racist and everything and what the ordinary people think it's just huge so and to my mind this is a new phenomenon this populist revolt and I don't know if you know about Prague and hungry and all that but they're basically saying no we're not we're not going to go along with the EU agenda on this and in Poland entirely become – bollocks I had a I had a meeting with the Polish Ambassador last week and this was right the day after the new prime minister was appointed you know who is being attacked this is far-right you know crypto Nazi guy and all that and what people don't understand is that the same thing is going on in the grassroots of Poland this went on here that has gone on in Hungary that is that has gone on in Germany and France and look at breakfast I mean really the English did it first when they voted for breakfast breakfast so we don't want to become a entity whose head is in Brussels right or or in in Berlin we we want we're a great country with great traditions you can only go so far being part of the Union what does being part of Union me now what are our goals are we are we really after what you should be called one-world government well it seems seems there are people that actually do want that and and what I've often said is that the the end of sheer anti-democratic element the the authoritarian element of the –use imposition of immigration policies on ordinary Europeans without their consent without their ignoring all of their objections is just racist I'm reading a book right now by Douglas Murray about I think it's called the death of Europe or something like that yeah strange death of Europe and one of the things he points out is that any any question or objection to what was going on is in Britain was instantly denounced as racist by the politicians and so that squashing of legitimate questioning and legitimate you know concerns has led to the rise of more extremist parties in Europe you know I don't know if alternative radula and Robert are they really extremists I I don't think so but that might be be there called extremists because they disagree with Russell yes right yes or they disagree with Figueroa they do you know and they're really all right and those people there are outright Nazi I shouldn't say Nazi outright white nationalist groups that are coming to the fore and gaining more adherence precisely because they many people think they're the only groups that speak for them and I don't mean the National Front in France or even alternate for Deutsche Welle other groups and movements that are out there and you can find them all over YouTube and they're there kind of explicitly Pro pro-european and anti Islam the Islamization of Europe and they're considered very extreme and the Euro Krauts are doing everything they can to get them arrested I mean you get you they do not have free speech in Europe if you say certain things they will very least bring a suit against yeah let's go to Europe and why the political well what I meant by that is that there is a communist party in in Europe there are you know neo-fascist parties in Europe they have a wide range of political parties in Europe and they have arguments and in a way we don't we have kind of this this very narrow Republican Democrat consensus and nothing to either end of the spectrum is allowed to speak and I think that's what so so Bernie Sanders is one end of the fringe that's considered to fringy and then you know Donald Trump was the other end and he actually won because America is a more conservative country than than it is but you and I could both imagine a presidential candidate far more conservative than Donald Trump I mean even calling Trump a conservative is a little bit funny that's true where he started when he was when he started when he started talking about the presidency I mean he he sincerely moved to the right during the campaign because I think he was getting among the people and hearing about what their deepest concern for him got him out of Manhattan they got him out of his Enclave in West Palm Beach I mean here's a guy that lives at the top of the heap and I'm sure that his closest friends were all far left liberal yes his whole social network was far left liberal so people forget the courage is taken for Trump to go against his entire crowd the crowd he was born into the son of wealth the crowd he went to college with that he became a businessman with that he did deals with all over the world he essentially said okay I'm going a different direction in terms of my politics and my social beliefs I don't care what you think of me yes he's independent enough he can do that yeah I uh when I want to tweak my liberal friends I always say yeah I'm just very disappointed in Trump he's just way way too liberal they just start to foam at the mouth and we're not even talking about that crowd who you know is a pretty significant crowd in the conservative movement they didn't like Trump's in they don't like him now oh the never trouble yes in every rompers let me ask you what you see coming in in 2018 I mean and and will or is it going to be a constitutional crisis if the if the Democrats win enough seats and they're serious about this talk of impeachment you know I think the ordinary American populace sees the Democrats are trying to do anything they can do to overturn the results of a valid election and they will do and say anything to try and get their way but would they take it to that that extent and you know what will that what will that mean for America there's a strong majority of democratic in the Congress that would do that but even internal to the Democrats themselves in Congress they don't have the votes to get the impeachment passed the Senate there would be a handful at least if not more of pretty strong minded Democrats who realize you try to impeach droppable what is it going to be and what are they going to choose Russia I think that's been discredited it's digging it impeach them for tweeting no or or what he says industry they can impeach him for criticizing the news which is acting completely irresponsibly I mean you had you have to go back to time of William Randolph Hearst to remember what the news when news could be bought and sold like that so oh it's very difficult to get a president removed from office you have to have a majority of the Senate just to bring the trial for it the trial takes place in the house and there's no way the house it's gonna come you know bring down a guilty verdict on president's problem well that's that's nice to hear yeah well so so what do you see what do you see the next couple years being is it just gonna continue same as 2017 just this people screaming at each other nothing's going to happen in 2018 I'm sorry to say I'm not telling you what I think it is it could be several things that's going to burn away a lot of this silliness because it's going to be the kind of event where America has to come together left and right Amelia has to give up its you know obsession with Donald Trump even with his wife and kids and I think that once we get to this moment in 2018 which I feel is inevitable given all the things that are going on in the world I think you know some of the air is going to clear a great deal between the president and the media and therefore for the country they're gonna feel a lot of relief that we're focusing on things that really matter rather than trying to settle the score with the guy who got in the way of Hillary Clinton I think I know as you're implying it it sounds a little scary if if I know where you're where you're what you're trying to say there I mean an external events that could bring the country together is that what you're saying yep and why don't you want to name that why is that because it's too too terrifying well you know I think when you start naming things you kind of help them to happen so I'm not going to name it I'm hoping and praying they don't happen yes but there's you know we've got about at least three fronts where something horrible could break out any moment I mean when I wake up in the morning and punch on the Drudge Report I'm just hoping I'm not gonna see what I I'm afraid I will see yes that happened in the middle of the night well in that case let me let me switch because I don't want to take too much your time we only have a few more minutes but I I asked you a question about Christians and especially Catholics because there seems to be a real big divide between the establishment church not the established church but the establishment in the church and ordinary people in them yes especially on on Trump I mean I think it's fair to say that us Catholic Bishops and certainly the Pope are not on the same page with what Donald Trump is doing and so in the sense that's just a reflection of what's going on society as a whole but for ordinary Christians who take their faith seriously especially ordinary Catholics how are we to make sense of all this I mean how can you be a trump supporter when the the Pope and your bishops are telling you that that's just the most horrible thing in the world and I understand that the bishops and Shepherds you know their concern is for all vulnerable people and so they will naturally be in on the side of poor Mexican immigrants who want to just make a better life for themselves and sneak into the country and so on and will be inevitably be opposed to anti-immigration policies so even taking that into account how are we to make sense of this of the leadership of our churches being so anti Trump with the exception of some evangelical churches but in general no Robert 17 or 18 years ago when I began working help get Bush elected he and Rove asked me to leave the Catholic outreach life I began to pummel the bishops liberal bishops with the distinction between credential matters and settled matters some people call them non-negotiable matters and to then drive drive the point that it's only on settled matters you can't our Catholics obliged to do with the Church teaches abortion euthanasia so forth and then on Prudential matter the bishops the bishops opinion did not oblige you now in 1999 in 2000 when I started doing that it was big news to all the Catholic powers I would speak to around the country this this what is a Prudential judgment and how is it different from non negotiable or and you know what's happened in the last 17 years just caught on and now you were that well that's part you know both in the pews and in the pulpit and that Prudential federal distinction has finally finally become part of most Catholics understanding of their political involvement so much so that you even see bishops now saying well it may be Prudential but it's right and it's what Catholics ought to do though and so they realize that their their former position we're sort of everything they were saying or coming out the bishop conference was being taken as you know an order some kind of obligation they realize now the Catholics don't have that same attitude they did you know back in the 80s and 90s well you know my liberal friends would say that's just that's probably true and that distinction is valid but you know the Pope when the Pope speaks on these things he's fairly forceful and and they'll say well you're just cafeteria Catholics just like us only you're a cafeteria Catholic on economic and immigration issues and that surely the altar boy in you if you were willing to if you were willing to say that we have to listen to pope john paul ii when he is enunciate in certain core more conservative principles that you are obliged as a faithful Catholic at least to give the pope fair hearing when he says that that we cannot we have to be on the side of immigrants and migrants and that's our primary obligation as christians whether you agree with them or not you have to at least hear them out which i think i have and i try and do that but that's an uncomfortable place for conservatives because the pope is fairly opposed to many of the key ideas that conservatives cherish Robert I'm not in the least bit uncomfortable about it because first of all I care about immigrants you care about immigrants we just show our caring and different way and we support different kind of policies to implement the principles we believe in which is welcome the stranger that was the name of these bishops program that's done it they put on to to push this idea so it's not we don't care we just we just use our care in a different manner we incarnated in different policies and laws and so forth now the problem with the bishop in a way in the problem is Pope Francis is when you open on 30 or 40 different times then it's natural for us as listeners to sort of see them all as in one big basket you know like they're all the same well if 30 things are the same none are really very important none are really that important if you're talking about 30 things at once and your liberal friends if they they're it's a dead giveaway when they say the altar boy in you because they don't want you to be an adult Catholic they want you to be a grown-up Catholics who understands your faith and is able to make these basic distinctions between you know what is what is our duty as Catholics on on fundamental issues like life and so forth versus what should our foreign policy be or what what should our tax dollars should be or what's your intervention policy be there's no altar boy in you that should accept the bishops opinions on those things first of all the bishops are themselves are divided on it even though you get statements coming out of this is Congress it's very easy to find individual bishops around countries ago well you know that was that committee's opinion yes and that as you know there are bishops around the country who supported Donald Trump they probably didn't you know profit is but they they did quietly give their support by simply not doing what other bishops were doing in trees and that is actively shutting down any kind of Republican outreach Catholic well since the since the hot-button issue for all this is immigration let me just ask you last couple questions about that and you know for those of us who do think we do have an obligation to welcome the stranger who who are in genuine need you know but on the other hand we look at Europe and see that even the early ways of Turkish immigrants that were welcomed will guess workers that were welcomed adjourn in Germany are not well integrated that much well integrated in the society and that may be ask the question are you really helping these people trying to with this ideologies of multiculturalism and trying to insert them in societies where they're not really accepted as as being part of the society they are second-class citizens and they end up resenting it isn't it better to try and help them closer to their own cultural homes in other words try and help them resettle or be away from war in like in the Middle East in Arab countries where they should have the line speak the same language and have the same culture as opposed to putting them in Sweden in a totally alien climate and culture and everything else and then be surprised when thirty years later their kids are resentful that they're not treated the same as Swedes so I mean it seems to me that's the big debate is is you know whether we should go for a multicultural environment or allow the French to be French and the Germans to be German and so on and America is a totally different situation because of our different history but what do you think of that issue because that seems to be the hot-button issue I think we I think we should focus on why the strangers are coming to our doors I think we have to make a distinction between those who come to our door because someone's chasing with a gun and then and those who say you know I'm stucked in a community where there are no jobs where there's no education or whatever and I think that we have to make laws and policies that it's not a one-size at all you know we want to offer immediate protection to anyone who is fleeing some kind of ruthless dictatorship that wants to put them in prison or silently simmer kill them for having revolutionary opinions and those who simply want to leave one Society join another where there seems to be more opportunity so I think we need different approaches to different groups of people yeah that's what the Europeans will say they'll say where are the where the children women and children when you see these miles of migrants coming and they're all twenty four year old young men you know they're not they're not families in many cases right and most of the families are settled closer to the to the war zones anyway because it's hard to travel with children and and what and women and so on and so more fundamental distinction the one I just gave you yeah I mean we have to have policies that recognize when families are coming yes and when young men are coming who may have very legitimate reasons for coming but when they're coming in sup numbers you've got to understand what is the driving force and them being the dominant group that are seeking to enter to Europe no of course hungry said no Poland said no right yeah and we have these uprisings in Germany and France where you know the little villages of Provence you know don't want these you know 20 or 30 Muslim families taking up all the seats around the town square right yes and also acting toward French women as if they were all whores because of the way they dress yes completely destroying the traditional coherence of these communities in France in Germany and yet there seems to be a political elite in Europe and in the United States that basically is in favor of open borders the bay that seems to want to deliberately Dalal the money follow the money to George Soros all night no we're not two ways off one direction is towards Foundation donations and funding and all that kind of stuff in another direction it's business I mean the best example is Al Gore and global warming I mean he's become practically a billionaire from driving that business and creating the crisis and then having the businesses in place the vendors the contractors in place to provide a solution anything is going on in education with common core the people driving common core often have the consulting business or goes into the schools to teach how to teach it they have connections to the publishers of the common core books or them that they themselves are the writers of the common core there's so much self self-interest often explain the irrational behavior well and people have said that that the corporate elite and the governmental elites are all driving this open border ideology because they weren't cheap labor and they deny that it has an economic impact on the societies in which they're pushing for this but it it clearly does and it clearly has a cultural impact and the ordinary people don't seem to like it much you know when when you're small English villages flooded and it doesn't even have to you don't have to think of it in terms of I think the initial British objection to the mass of migration wasn't against Africans in Syrians it was against poles the Polish plumber and it wasn't because they're racist is because they they just didn't want 50% of the population of this little village speaking Russian or polish or whatever Catholic or whatever yeah you know so so and do they have a right to say that you know that you know actually we don't want everybody speaking polish in our little English village and then when you magnify that and it's no longer Polish Catholics coming but you know Syrian Muslims who believe that women should be completely covered you know in in veils then this multiplied the the resentment so on so it seems to me that there there is a big intellectual and cultural battle going on right now about multiculturalism open society open borders versus those who believe that a nation's culture is worth preserving and in guarding and and you know it has to be done delicately when you have immigration exactly and it's that delicacy that the station's being made the policies being rich enough to recognize delicacies that we're missing right now and in the environment where in Robert it's very unlikely that we're going to get there anytime soon because people are so polarized on one side or the other and there seem to be so few people trying to work out the differences because they're often kind of the constituencies of these members of Congress will not allow that them you know will not allow them to come up with a bill that has bipartisan support yes well so so where do you see what do you see Europe coming and then America I mean it's uribl basically a lost cause for those who want to slow down the immigration and kind of shore up the the know what no it's not a lot cause it's not a lost cause okay we're seeing the people set the record straight they're seeing the people threatening the leadership of Merkel's he practically lost her just position and we're seeing the very unusual situation in France where the right almost took over the transept they had elected a far left guy turns out to be more of a moderate we're seeing Poland the most dramatic instance of specifically Catholic leadership they taking over and saying we are going to not only defend our country we're gonna finish Catholic heritage and it's Catholic values and we're not going to let the European Union dictate their values to us so I I think the place to watch and where the real battle about this is going to be has been : static where the real that's that's where the the frontlines are gonna be but as Marie says and as I think there's an EU High Commissioner I think yesterday said you know you get used to it we're not changing this is the future and you know tough and that was Marin Marie's book he often said that that the one of the one of the classic tactics of rhetoric is to present your side as an inevitability and the battle is won we were on the right side of history and the gay marriage advocates did that and they no resistance is futile it's all over with some things that's a good tactic but with other things especially when you're an infant institution like the EU info since infancy versus taking on a country with the history of Poland with this moderate martyrdom with its heroism with the deaths of the depth of its faith he you can't overcome that well good I'm glad I our God we had conversation deal it seems you've given me more hope coming into the New Year and Christmas and everything and so when Mary well thank you very much so what's what's what are you going to be doing for 2018 you're gonna more trips to Europe and I'm gonna work on your book or what's the deal I'm going to finally decide what book it is I want to write I've got three in front of me and for the last year or so I've been going back and forth I'm going to focus in I'll continue doing church and culture on the Ave Maria radio network I'll continue to work on my Christian review website but also write for Newsmax I'm Mara I am trying to help the Trump administration getting to get closer to Catholics that is something that you know we're doing quietly but we're hoping 2018 there'll be a lot more direct connection between the Trump administration and it's Catholic support base well that sounds like a fun year so thank you very much for talking to me Robert we'll stay in touch let's do it thank you

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