Arnab Goswami With Sadhguru – In Conversation with the Mystic @New Delhi 2017

Arnab Goswami With Sadhguru – In Conversation with the Mystic @New Delhi 2017

Conversation Starts @1:27 mins Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Sadhguru it’s
a absolute pleasure to be with you here today. I have… I have a large audience, I have a mike, I have no time limit, I have not been on air for three months (Sadhguru
laughs), I am completely starved, they’ve told me to have a conversation with
you and there are some of my guests who come on
my program who have been probably missing this. It’s wonderful to be with you, it’s… I… I have spent some time with you one-on-one
in the past. We have had conversations. The one thing which I have always found about
you is that you are just so normal. You are so (Laughter) Sadhguru: That’s an insult (Laughs). Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): See this is a… I do a news program, you are turning this into an entertainment
show (Laughter). Can I please proceed? You are a wonderful person because I find
you straight, I find you direct, I don’t find you pretentious, I think you speak so much common sense, you say so many deep things in a very understandable
way, which explains your popularity and why so many people have turned up this
evening to listen to you. I was told that the theme of Rotary has been
Success, Service and Spirituality. We will try and start off by talking about
that and you can take it forward for them. What is more important, Success, Service or
Spirituality? Choose one of them. Sadhguru: If you are Whether you do spirituality or service you
want success in that also. You want to be successful because the very purpose of any human activity – whether it’s something small that you do or something large that you do something very simple as hitting a ball you
want to be successful. You don’t want to do it in a goofy way. Even if you blow your nose and want to throw
the tissue into the bin, you want to be successful (Laughs). I am saying something so silly also you want
to be successful. The biggest things that you do in your life, of course you want success. So success is key to all human activity. Success means Success is not recognition, success is not what somebody else says, success is you’re doing things the way it
works. The purpose of activity is just this, it must work. If you do something in a way it doesn’t
work and you think it’s big (Laughs), you are… you are in the wrong place. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): But what happens when a person is individually successful but at the cost of others? I… I personally often think that people turn
to spirituality as an alternative to their own success because they feel guilty about their own success and want to make up for it through spirituality. Sadhguru: Let’s understand what is spiritual
process. If you are thinking in terms of spiritual
process means you look heavenward – no. This has been cultured These things we’ve picked up in the last
few centuries, otherwise it did not exist in this country,
of looking up – Ooperwala doing things. This is a huge problem – which I am trying to change dramatically now
– if little things go wrong in your life, you find one little person there (Pointing
downward) and think it’s because of him. If big things go wrong in your life, you find a big guy there (Pointing skyward)
and you think it’s because of him. This guy (Referring to oneself) is absent. It’s time to bring this guy into account. He is been you know unaccounted man for too
long. Small things this guy, big things that guy, what about this guy? It is time. My endeavor is to move people from religion
to responsibility because spiritual process means this. What you’re referring to as spirit is that which is the basis of your body. When I say that which is the basis of your
body – you were not born like this, you came with such a small one and now you
become like this. If you put a banana into this, it becomes the same kind of body, if you put a chapatti into this, it become
the same body. So there is an intelligence and a dimension
within us, which builds you from within. How…How can any human being know life without
addressing this dimension? It is like – you know the paintwork of your
car, you know what is… you do not know what is sitting in the hood. Right now, every time there is an advertisement
for an automobile – not that I am going to buy one, but I always look up because I am interested
in all kinds of mechanical things and I am amazed, in India all the ads talk about the paintwork, about the leather, about the woodwork, Nobody is telling us – what is the engine;
what is the transmission` what kind of systems does it have, nothing
because people are just driving paintwork. So if your life is such that you just live
with your body and your psychological process, you’re just driving paintwork and leather
work and woodwork, no engine. The engine of life is the spiritual process. Without taking charge of this, you will only
be a fraction human being, not a full human being. So if you want success and if you want to
do something useful to yourself and to everybody around you, first thing is spiritual process. But even there you need success (Laughs),
otherwise it is no good. Interviewer: You got to be guided yourself How do you do it (Sadhguru): See if you are not influenced
by anybody you don’t need any guidence But very few people could grow up without
any influence By the time you are twelve, fifteen years
you are pretty screwed up in so many ways because there are so many adults around you
always want to teach you something which has not worked in their lives People keep asking me you know I was in United
States a few months ago there this lady very angry with me; she says
I am doing yoga for the last forty years – nothing happened to me You just went and sat on a rock and all these
happened to you she thinks it’s some special rock the only thing I did was right from my childhood
– I never got identified with anything either my parentage, my family, my society;
the religion around me social structures around me the political stuff whatever was happening
I never got identified with anything If you keep your intelligence unidentified,
you will naturally become spiritual. Is it not normal for this intelligence to
ask the question what is beyond this? Is it not very, very normal, for human intelligence
to question – because you see people die every day somewhere
or the other – “Okay when I fall dead what? Beyond this body what, before this body what?” Is it not a very normal question? But because they messed you up telling you, “Oh you came from heaven and you will go
back to heaven and this’s what will happen, that’s what…” About things that they don’t have a clue,
everybody is talking with authority. Because of this now it looks like somebody
has to guide you to a spiritual process. If you bring up your children without a single
advice – if you are capable of that, it’s very difficult
believe me (Laughs). You know, when… when my daughter was just
three and a half months old, she was travelling with me. One hand on her and my right leg be always
full down and I drove across the country and she grew
up like this with me till she is five, till she went to school. Every day we are in a different home, staying with all kinds of people, everybody wants to teach her something. I said one rule is nobody will teach her anything. No ABC, no 123, no ‘Mary had a little lamb’ because I don’t care whether Mary had a
lamb or not (Laughter). So you won’t believe, nobody taught her anything. By the time she is eighteen months, she fluently
speaks three languages because she is all ears, because nobody talks to her (Laughs). She just grasped everything around her because nobody is teaching her anything. And she grew up like this and when she was twelve, thirteen years of
age, one day she came up to me, she just come…came back from school, disturbed
about something there and she said, “You’re teaching everybody so many things,
you’re not telling me anything.” I said, “Well, I don’t do anything unsolicited. Here you come now, let’s see.” So this is all you need to know. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): So what I want
to know is how human you are. Sadhguru: (Laughs) Let me tell you this’s
how human I am. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): I haven’t finished
my question. I want to know I want to know how human you are Sadhguru, because the reason I am asking you this is
because (Sadhguru laughs) very often we want to be guided by people who we feel have transcended the insecurities
of humanity. So I want to know whether you are scared of
something (Sadhguru laughs). I want to know whether you have experienced
fear, and I would also like to know whether you
have attachments. Can we start with the first? Sadhguru: Let me finish this. This is not news hour okay? When I am…When I am telling you an answer, you can’t ask me another question (Laughter). Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): I’ll get back, I’ll get back. Sadhguru: I am not…We are not yet in Republic
either (Laughs). Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): You are making
a cardinal mistake Sadhguru (Sadhguru laughs). In 2014 I met a young man, called Rahul Gandhi
(Laughter). Sadhguru: Oh! Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): I don’t know
why anyone is laughing again. He too interrupted me like you did, I’ll get back later. Please continue, but you will have to answer
my question later. Please go ahead. Sadhguru: You ha… You have a different package here (Laughter/Applause). So I will come to that, I am very much going towards that. So the girl comes to me and says this, then I say, “See this is all you have to know – never look up to anybody.” She looks at me, ‘what about you’ kind
of thing. I said, “Not even me. Never look up to anybody, never look down on anybody. This is all the teaching” (Applause). If you don’t look up to anything, if you don’t look down on anything, you will see everything just the way it is. If you see everything just the way it is, you will navigate your life effortlessly. That’s all it takes. Now how human am I? You just now used the word human and almost everybody, everywhere I go they use the word ‘human’ always referring to the limitations of being
human, never talking about the immensity of being
human. “Oh I am only human.” why are you not saying I am human? You are on top. You are the top species on the planet. You are supposed to be on top of the pile
of all the species. Why people are saying ‘I am only human’
is because they are suffering themselves like
no other creature. Not an ant or an elephant suffers themselves
as human beings do. Their stomach is full, they are fine. For human being, stomach empty only one problem, stomach full one hundred problems. The reason is This’s an evolutionary thing (Laughs) It’s an evolutionary thing that what you call as your cerebral flower, this brain is new to you. You know in the evolutionary scale of things, it is a new happening, this intellect. And most people have not figured how to handle
it. They are not suffering the world, they are suffering their own thought and emotion
most of the time. Why is it your education systems did not even
teach you how to handle your thought, how to handle your emotion? Now the moment you say you are human or not, first thing the next question somebody will ask is, can I pull a gold chain from thin air, can I do something else or can I pull out a rabbit from the vessel or can I pull a pigeon out of my pocket? If I pull a pigeon out of pocket… my pocket, what will you have? You will have a bird, I’ll have a shitty
pocket (Laughter). This’s not going to change anybody’s lives. I will show you a miracle. I will show you people who have… who are
full on activity – not people who are sitting in some cave – full on activity all right? Twenty hours a day, seven days of the week we are all on. I will show you people for five, ten, fifteen years they’ve not had a moment of anger, agitation, irritation, nothing. They live joyfully, blissfully. This is the miracle the world wants. This is the miracle humanity needs. If this happens to you, you will not refer to human as a limitation. You will talk about human as a huge possibility
(Applause). Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): My question My question was about whether you need to
transcend a few things. I personally think it’s all right. It’s good to feel fear, it’s good to have
insecurities, it’s good to be attached. But what we are constantly told is to be guilty
about fear, to be worried about expressing or being open
about Sadhguru: That is multiplying the problem. Now you have fear and now you have guilt. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): See, Sadhguru
I listened to you (Laughter)… Sadhguru: I still watch News hour, so what
can I do (Laughter)? Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): This doesn’t
usually happen to me (Laughter). But Rotary club, well, okay. So…You’ve made me forget my question. My point was that we are constantly told to
be to be embarrassed about our insecurities,
right? We are told not to have attachments. We are constantly told that in our lives, and in our own Hindu philosophies and other
philosophies, to lose attachments. I want to know why this is necessary, which is why I asked you because you were described as an enlightened
soul which I know you are. I asked you whether an enlightened Sadhguru: No, you do not know. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): …enlightened
soul like you (Sadhguru laughs) feels insecurity, experiences attachment. Sadhguru: See, why this has come up is, because people have a selective sense of involvement. This’s what I said when I said ‘do not look up to anything, look…do not
look down on anything.’ This is because if you look up to any…something,
you will exaggerate. If you look down on something, you will exaggerate
the negative. The moment you look up to something you will
get attached to it. The moment you look down on something, you will get dejected by it in some way, disgust will come. So these… these emotions of fear, insecurity, attachment, detachment, everything is a consequence. Shall we handle the source, or shall we handle the consequence? People are always busy handling the consequence. They’re telling you ‘trim your fear.’ Can you feel… trim it? No way is it going to work. Now you’re flipping on the other side and
saying, ‘we need not be ashamed of it, let’s have
it.’ Is it a pleasant experience I am asking? Is fear, insecurity, guilt whatever – is it a pleasant experience? If it’s a pleasant experience keep it, it’s
up to you. If it’s an unpleasant experience is it a choice? I am asking you just this much. In the world around us, what happens, it’s
a different issue. World will never happen hundred percent the
way you want it. Even if you’re just two people in the family, still it doesn’t happen the way you want
it. If it’s fifty-one percent your way you are
the boss. Okay (Laughs)? More than that won’t happen. But what happens within you must happen your
way, isn’t it? If what happens within you happened your way, would you keep this blissful, or would you keep this fearful or miserable
or whatever? You wouldn’t do that to yourself, isn’t
it? At least for yourself you want the highest
level of pleasantness. Though what you want for your neighbor may
be debatable, but what you want for yourself is very clear,
isn’t it? Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): So it’s okay
to have fear, it’s okay to be insecure? Sadhguru: No, I didn’t say that. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): It’s okay to
be attached? And what about… Sadhguru: I’m asking you, if you had a choice… Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): And what about
ego Sadhguru? Fear, insecurity, attachment and ego – these are the four things Sadhguru that we are told to get rid of. Over a period of time we are told that as you grow older and you learn more in life, you must learn to give away all four… Sadhguru: Who is your guru? Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Pardon me? Sadhguru: Who is your guru? Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Who is (Laughter)? Why should I reveal? No, but this is a fact, this is what we are told. Is it necessarily the truth? Sadhguru: Let’s go one at a time. The ego. Everybody is talking about this. Right now in a… any human being for that
matter, if they do something wonderful, they’ll
say, “I did it.” If they do something nasty, “It was my ego.” So Mister Ego is a fall guy. Whenever you turn nasty, he’s always there, but when you do good things, it’s of course
you, isn’t it? I’m saying let’s become straight with
life, that sometimes you are wonderful, sometimes
you’re nasty, sometimes you’re joyful, sometimes you’re
miserable, this is your reality right now. You don’t need a fall guy. This much sincerity we must bring into our
lives that what happens from within me is me and
nobody else but me. If you come to this much, now if you see…You’re fearful or you’re
miserable or you’re frustrated, or you’re depressed, if you see it’s all because of me, would you not want to change it? Would you not want to change it? One hundred percent. Now, “I want to change it, how?” Tch, now you’re asking for tools. That is why I’m here, just giving you tools for transformation because tools are important in human life. As human beings we are dominating the planet only because of our ability to use tools. Otherwise probably a colony of ants or a pack of dogs could dominate human species. But we can use tools. The power of tools is such – right now if I ask you to unscrew a little
screw in this furniture, you may lose all your nails, it’ll not come out, you may lose some of your teeth, it’ll not
come out. If I give you a little screwdriver, it’ll
come out. So similarly, to handle the inner dimensions,
there are tools. These tools… This is the USP of this country which is all
messed up right now, that people have not presented it properly. If I give you tools for transformation, the only thing is to learn to use the tools,
that’s all. You don’t have to believe any philosophy, you don’t have to adhere to any ideology, you don’t have to look heavenward, because you don’t know in which direction
it is. People are looking up. After all, you’re sitting on a round planet
and the damn thing is spinning all the time, if you look up, you are obvious… inevitably looking up in the wrong direction
(Laughter). Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Sadhguru, two
simple questions. One is, when you experienced what you said, sitting on a rock and you experienced enlightenment
– we spoke about it once – you described it
to me – please don’t think it’s an absurd question
– why did it happen to you and doesn’t it
happen to others, A. What did you experience and what do others have to go through to go
through that experience? Are you blessed in a different way? Why did nobody else go through that experience? Everyone seeks it. Sadhguru: Everyone is not seeking it, nor was I seeking it. I was not seeking it. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Tell me about
it. Sadhguru: I must give you some background. When I was just four, four-and-a-half years
of age, I suddenly realized that I don’t know anything. I don’t know anything means I don’t know
anything at all – to such an extent, if somebody gives me a glass of water, I would be simply staring at the water for
hours on end. I know what is water, in terms of how I can
use it but I don’t know what it is. Even today we don’t know what it is. With all this scientific exploration, we still do not know what a single atom is. We know how to break it, we know how to use it, we know how to fuse it, but we don’t know
what it is. So, if I saw a leaf, I’m just staring at…
staring at it for five-six hours. I sit up in my bed and I’m staring at the
darkness for the entire night. My dear father being a physician thinks that I need psychiatric evaluation. You also beginning to think (Laughter). So he is worried, “This boy is simply staring at something
all the time.” My problem is, I looked at this and I don’t
know what this is, I’m not able to shift my attention to another
one. What is this, what is that, what is that,
what is that? By the time I’m five, I’m a billion questions. And nobody seems to know anything. Initially – they were all comfortable – I thought they all know, only I don’t know. Then slowly I realized they have made a deal
with their ignorance. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Deal with? Sadhguru: Ignorance. They’ve made a deal with their ignorance. They have all decided, “This’s how it
is. We don’t know, you don’t know, it’s
okay. We’ll all pretend everything is fine”
(Laughter). I couldn’t make a deal with my ignorance. So I just sat there staring at everything. In this condition they sent me to school (Laughs). My mother said, “You must pay attention to the teacher.” I went and paid attention to the teacher (Laughter), the kind of attention the teacher would have
never receive in their life (Laughter). Initially I heard their words and sort of understood what they were trying
to say, but after a while I realized they are only
making sounds. This’ll be very useful. They are only making sounds, I’m making up the meaning in my head. When I realized they are just… you know, hour after hour, teacher after teacher, they come and make sounds, make sounds and
make sounds, I’m making up meanings and meanings and
meanings. Then I realized this and I stopped making
meanings, I just paid attention to the sounds. After some time it became so amusing, a big smile spread on my face but they were
not amused (Laughter). Things continued like this. About eight-nine years ago, this school where I studied over forty-five
or fifty years ago, they came to invite me for their 125th anniversary. I said, “See, why me? Because I was not just a bad student, I was not even a student.” I only went there when it was a must. They said, “No, no, our school has produced
union ministers, our school has produced test cricketing stars, film stars, you’re the only mystic, you have to come”
(Laughs). So I went. So I go up there go there and stand up in the quadrangle to
speak and I look around – same oppressive buildings. Then I looked like this, this classroom, suddenly it reminds me I’m
twelve years of age and those days I wouldn’t speak for many days at a time because when you don’t know anything, what
to say? So one afternoon the teacher is trying to
get a response from me, he’s asked a question and he’s ask…
a… waiting for a response. I simply look at him. I say nothing. He can’t make out anything of me. And after some time, I don’t even see him, it’s like that for me. I know his past, present and future, but I don’t hear what he’s saying. After thirty-five – forty minutes of this
effort, he got so mad with me, he came and held me by the shoulder (Gestures), shook me violently like this (Gestures) and said, “You must either be the divine
or the devil. I think you’re the later (latter?).” I was not insulted by this or abused by this. My problem was, “What is this, what is that, what is that,
what is that?” One certainty was that this is me. Suddenly this guy confused me about this also. I looked (Laughter), “Is this divine, is this devil? What the hell is this” (Laughter)? I thought this is me. This was okay till then (Laughs), suddenly I didn’t know what is this (Gestures
by pointing to himself). So I tried to stare at myself, it didn’t
work so I started closing my eyes. What was minutes then went into hours went
into days and that is my spirituality (Laughs). Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): And then… Then what happened? Sadhguru: I… By the time I’m fifteen, I’m almost ready to leave home for an armed
struggle. These’re the days of Charu Majhumdar and
Somalu and I want to leave because any… anything that I perceive as injustice, my… my stomach burns so I want to rush. A bunch of boys, all of us want to leave and
join ‘armed struggle.’ Then when I got very close to them, then I saw they were, unfortunately not what
they were talking. So I kind of stepped back. Then I became a super skeptic. I grew up on Dostoevsky, Camus, Kafka, this kind of stuff, skeptical about everything. But one thing was eating me, that is these billions of questions and they
started growing, the number of questions went on growing as
my intellect grew. No answer, then the only answer I found was to travel, so initially I cycled across South India. Then I motorcycled across India, I crisscrossed India many times all over the
place. Then when I was nineteen plus, I just, you know I’ve been riding since I was eleven without
a license, but by eighteen the day I became eighteen I went and got my
license within a week’s time. So suddenly I thought I am super-empowered,
I can go where I want. Then I came to Nepalese border, and then they stopped me and they asked for
a passport. I didn’t know what it is. You won’t believe, I was nearly twenty, nineteen
at least, I did not know what is a passport. I did not… I thought my license will get me everywhere
(Laughs). Then, that was a kind of a realization, I
thought, “Okay, oh I can’t cross these lines.” So I went back determined to get myself a
passport and some money so that I’ll travel forever because the only thing that cooled me down
from these questions was I was moving. I rode across the country alone, by myself,
simply, not going anywhere in particular. I saw India like very few people would have
seen India, in a completely different way. I just walked into villages, just knocked on a door and said, “I’m hungry” and they fed me, without asking my name, where I come from. Sometimes I was tired, so I slept in their
homes. Next day morning I left without asking their
name, who they are, but that imagery, those people, those emotions,
that stuff – I think it hugely enriched my life, and the terrain. I can run that terrain that I have seen thousands
of kilometers of terrain, is like a video in my mind, I can just run it in my mind and just enjoy
India just like that. Not some great monuments or something. Just a tree, an outcrop of rock or this or
that – like that. This is how I remember everything because I never think in words. Even today I think only in pictures and images,
not in words. I think that’s what keeps me very, very entertained
(Laughs) by everything that I do (Laughs). So, then I thought I should make some money
and got into business, became far more successful than people would
expect in a short period of time. And everybody started clapping their hands, “You’re doing great (Claps) and wonderful.” But I was doing all this to get away from
everything. But as success came, you know, you… I tried to put one finger, then all the five fingers went, then all the ten fingers went, it’ll go right
up till here (Gestures). I think those highly successful business days, probably was the most wasted days of my life because there was no exploration. I did variety of things, I started half a dozen small businesses which
all started growing, which people would think is success, but I, when I look back and see, those six
years of my life are probably the least creative part of my life. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Why… Why did you do it? Sadhguru: I thought I’ll make money and ride
away. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Why did you want
to make money? Sadhguru: To ride. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): To ride? Sadhguru: Yeah, to fill the gas, you know
(Laughter)? To put gas in the tank all the time (Laughs) because right from the age of twelve, thirteen, I’ve been riding cycles across South India. After that, I’ve been on the motorcycle, I don’t know how to You need gas, so I thought I need money to really go away. So, it caught me up and then one afternoon, and you know, Mysore City. How many of you are familiar with Mysore City? Okay. There’s a little hill called Chamundi Hill. There is a tradition in Mysore – at least there was at that time for the youth
– if we want to test our motorcycles, we ride
up Chamundi Hill. If we want to party, we go up Chamundi Hill. If we fall in love, we go up Chamundi Hill. If we fall out, we have to go up Chamundi
Hill (Laughter). If we have nothing to do, we went up Chamundi
Hill (Laughter). So that afternoon, between two business meetings, I just had about an hour-and-a-half – without even thinking, I just rode up Chamundi
Hill. I have camped there, I have trekked this hill right from my childhood, I know this too well. So I parked my motorcycle, climb up and sit
on that now-famous rock, but I’m telling you the rock is not special
(Laughs). It’s like the Bodhi tree – the tree became more famous than the Buddha
(Laughter). So, I just went and sat there, my eyes were still open, and suddenly I did not know which is me and
which is not me. Till that moment, it was always very clear – this is me (Gestures),
that is somebody else. I have no issue with that somebody, but this is me and that’s somebody else. Suddenly I did not know which is me and which
is not me, what was me was just everywhere – the very rock upon which I was sitting, the air that I was breathing, the atmosphere around me – everything had become me. I thought this madness lasted for about ten-fifteen
minutes, but when I came back to my normal state, it
was about four-and-a-half hours, my eyes were still open. For the very first time in my adult life,
tears – me and tears were impossible, I lived like this (Gestures), but tears to a point my shirt is all wet and every cell in my body is bursting with
ecstasy. When I shook my skeptical head and asked, “What is happening to me”, the only thing that my mind could tell me
was, “Maybe you’re going off your rocker.” Then when I shared with my closest friends, “Something is happening to me, it’s too fantastic.” They said, “Ah, come on! What did you drink? What did you pop?” I saw there was nobody around me, nor anything in my mind to tell me what’s
happening to me. All I knew was I’ve hit something which is
a goldmine and I don’t want to miss it for a moment. And I just discovered this – if I just sit here without messing with my
thought process and my emotion, my entire system will burst out in ecstasy. And a few days later I made a plan because I thought I’m the first one to discover this
at that time because I had no spiritual I am not acquainted with spiritual traditions, I have never read a scripture in my life. Till today I have never prayed to anybody
or anything (Laughs), nor have I attended any spiritual discourses
or anything. So I thought, “This is the first time, I know, and I made a plan – in two-and-a-half to three years’ time, I’m going to make the entire world ecstatic
(Laughs). See (Gestures), thirty-five years (Laughter). Well, we have touched one-hundred-and-fifty
to 200 million people, but that is not my idea of the world. Slowly, you know, these days I have become
wise. Now I realize so many people have so seriously
invested in their misery, they are not going to withdraw their investment
so easily. It needs so much coaxing and cajoling and
life knocking them on their head. So many things need to happen to them, or you have to threaten them with death (Laughs), otherwise, they will not withdraw their investments even though it is causing enormous pain and
suffering to them. They are not willing to withdraw their investments
in misery. So slowly we are working. I know I will die a failure, but a blissful failure. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): I’ve made a mistake
Sadhguru (Sadhguru laughs). My mistake is that I’m constructing a studio
for our Channel Republic. I constructed it in Lower Parel, can you tell me the way to Chamundi Hill please
(Laughter/Applause)? I want to build my studios in Chamundi Hill. I’ll also experience ecstasy every moment
(Sadhguru laughs). I don’t know about my guests, Sadhguru: I can make it happen in…wherever
you are (Interviewer laughs). Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): This is fascinating
Sadhguru. Life changed after that? Sadhguru: The… The most important thing is, the perception of who I am changed. I am not talking about the idea of who I am
– the perception of who I am. I went up the hill as a smart young man, very cocky and confident about everything. I came down as real nothing. Just nothing means nothing was left in me. That was my… end of my business (Laughs). Then I loitered around the town because I
didn’t want to go home. I didn’t want to face my mother because suddenly she was no more my mother. Somewhere, I was little struggling with that. I knew when I went… went home, I wouldn’t look at her as I would have look…
as I have looked at her for the last twenty-five years. I didn’t go there till 11:30 in the night. I wanted her to go to bed, but our mothers are such, she’s still waiting. I put my head down and went. I said, “I’m not hungry” and I went and locked in…
my… myself in the room because though something so fantastic was
happening, I was still struggling between the two worlds. Everything that I considered as myself till
that moment was gone and suddenly I look at people – it’s indescribable (Laughs) because so many things that you’re involved
in, it’s like you almost died. I think this is how it must feel when you’re
dead. So many things – you think this is it, this
is it, this is it, but tomorrow morning, poopp, the man disappears
– nothing. Doesn’t matter you cry, you yell, he doesn’t respond. He’s completely gone. Just like that, I was completely gone. The person that I was, was just gone. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Sadhguru, you
meet a lot of interesting people. Who is the most self-aware or the most enlightened
human being you have met? Sadhguru: There’re lot of people around
me. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Names and why? Sadhguru: Oh, usually they are not famous
names (Laughs) – simple people (Laughs). Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Avoiding my question
(Laughs). Sadhguru: No I’m not. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): There must be
some people we know who you find the most _____ (Unclear). Sadhguru: See, the most fantastic human beings
on the planet are usually not well-known (Applause) because getting known in the world is a different
business. Being wonderful within you is a different
business. I’m doing everything possible to marry these
two. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): What do you think
about the state of the nation? Sadhguru: See, we must understand that – as ancient we are as a nation – the idea of a modern nation has not really
sunk into everybody’s minds. I believe the way you have named your new
venture, in some way, you want the idea to sink in
to people’s minds because nation is not some God-given thing. It is something that exists in people’s minds
and hearts – it’s just an idea that we enshrine in pursuit of common well-being, but it goes somewhere all together. Over a period of time, people start thinking
it is the thing. That’s not how it is, but it is the thing, it’s an important aspect because nation is the largest segment of humanity
that you can address right now. If you could address the entire humanity,
it would be fantastic, but that’s not possible, that’s not realistic right now. That may be the ideal, but that’s not realistic. So right now, nation is the largest segment
of humanity you can address. India, as a nation, is a world by itself. So though we have a history of what we call as Bharat or Hindustan, which
goes back to 10-12000 years of history, both Though, within this geography we had at certain
times over two hundred political entities, still we were considered a nation, both by people within and those outside also
considered this nation, though there were different kings ruling all
over the place. Why this happened – this’ a unique thing – most nations, or all nations, are made on
the sameness of something. Sameness with language, sameness of race, sameness of religion, some sameness is important. We have defied that completely. We have never tried to be same in any sense. If you drive fifty kilometers anywhere in
the country, every fifty kilometers, you meet different
kind of people – they look different, talk different, dress different, eat different. Everything is different about them, but still we have been a nation for over 10000
years without maintaining the sameness. I think it’s a extremely unique and fantastic
happening which we must culture and nurture and preserve. What is it that kept us together? Why people outside called us a nation, though we were rules by different entities
all the time? Fundamental thing which made… made us one
nation is that every nation in the world believed in
something, we, as a nation, never believed in anything. We have always been a nation of seekers – seekers of truth, seekers of liberation. Todays (Laughs) In today’s generation, this might have gone out of the present lingo, but it’s coming back in some other way. In previous generation, if you spoke, in a day my grandmother wouldn’t end a conversation without at least once uttering the word mukhi
or moksha. It was like day-to-day thing. It’s not like at the end of your life you’re
thinking mukhi or when you go to a spiritual discourse you’re
thinking mukhi – no. In day-to-day life in conversations every
day, “Mukhi, mukhi.” Maybe that is why today people are shouting
“Azadi, azadi (Referring to Persian word – freedom/liberty)” (Laughs)! Maybe it’s coming back in another way (Laughs),
but Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): You’ve s… You’ve heard of the ongoing discussion on freedom of expression and I personally
felt pretty outraged last year when a group of people started to make it
fashionable to speak against the nation. We saw the limits of the debate on freedom
of expression last year. Sadhguru, my question to you is in the context
of what is happening today. We’ve seen a little bit of that happen once
again on the North Campus of Delhi University. In… In your view, why is it becoming fashionable
for some people to run down the nation and then use that as an example of the freedom
of expression? I find that hypocrisy, what do you think? Sadhguru: Everybody is very freely quoting
the constitution. It is the constitution of India which gives you the freedom (Laughs) of speech
– you must stress on the word India (Laughs). It is the constitution of India, it is not some divine constitution which has
given you this freedom. It is the constitution of India which has
given you this freedom. The moment you question that, then you have questioned the fundamentals
of the making of a nation. See, religions have their own constitution. The only problem with this constitution is it’s not amendable (Laughs). A nation has a constitution, but if all of us don’t like it, we can amend
it. It’s not a… given by somebody, we made it, we agreed to it. It’s an agreement. Our constitution in an agreement among us. So when the freedom of speech was given, they put eight restrictions. The Indian constitution puts eight restrictions
on human… on freedom of speech. One fundamental restriction is it should not question the sovereignty of
the nation. The moment you question it, you’re questioning the existence of the nation. Where does the constitution give you freedom? It doesn’t make sense. So, these things are coming from a certain
background. I… I’m telling you, I went through this when I was thirteen, fourteen. By the time I was fifteen, I was ready to
pick up the gun because we were…they have fiery talks every
day, you know? Very insightful, I mean, not insightful (Laughs) – very inciting
kind of talks. So fired up that you want to do something. And when you are young you always think, you
know, violence is the solution. Those people who are talking about peace,
they don’t believe in it, they believe in violence. The moment you talk about breaking up something, there is going to be violence whether you
like it or you don’t like it. If you… You don’t have to go that bar… back far
(far back?) in history, if you just go back to 1948, when the country
was broken. Because we didn’t have the courage to fix
it, we broke it, we’re still bleeding. Half a million people died, endless amount of suffering people went through, and still there are colonies both here in
this country and that country which are still not sorted out. Yes? Still, even properties are not settled (Laughs)
– seventy years. How long do you think is human life span? Are we going to live for 1000 years that we’re
going to settle our problems over seventy-hundred years? Still, both the nations are bleeding. When I say bleeding, don’t think only of the
human blood. What is the What is the kind of investment we are making
in our armed forces? Only because we broke this country, isn’t
it? Otherwise, everything could have been focused
on the well-being of the people. Just to… I mean, just I’m not commenting on this. Just recently when I, you know, when I was
just reading the newspapers I saw twenty-eight billion dollars for a missile
defense system from Russia we’re buying. We are buying much more, but I’m just saying – twenty-eight billion
dollars, when I think about it, we could educate every
child in the country, we could nourish every child in the country, we could do so much work. We could make sure people in this country
live well, but we cannot do that right now simply because we broke the nation. So if you talk about breaking it further, this will go on for centuries because breaking will never be clean breaking
– it’ll not happen like that. When you break, somebody will be this side,
somebody will be that side, so much human suffering – resentment, hatred
– which you cannot solve. This line that was drawn just sixty-seventy
years ago, can you believe it is only sixty years, the level of hatred we have for each other? You can’t cure this, isn’t it? So, breaking is never a solution. It’s better to sort it out. Whichever way it comes, better to sort it
out. For that, we have a framework which is called
a constitution. Constitution, we must – I’m repeating this
– is not a divine document, it is an agreement between you and me so that in every step that we take we don’t
collide with each other. This is the law that we will follow, that’s
all. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with you. I am so glad that you have made your position
so abundantly clear on this subject because I don’t know why people are conflicted,
Sadhguru. Some people say they are conflicted even over issues such as whether you need
to stand up for the national anthem. We had the most Sadhguru: That’s because in the theatres, in one hand they have popcorn, in the other hand they have Coca-Cola (Laughter). They cannot stand up. You must consider these things (Applause). Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): No, but there
was that absurd debate last year (Sadhguru laughs), and I know many people here would know about
it. It became fashionable last year to say, “Assert my right to rebel, and my rebellion is that I will not stand
up for the national anthem.” And I’m saying this openly, Sadhguru, I am a part of the media too. But I found the pseudo-liberal media in this
country advocating that as an example of the freedom
of expression. And forgive my directness on this, I’d never felt people in my fraternity were
more wrong. Sadhguru: See, what we need to understand
is we’re picking up bits and pieces from developed
nations and trying to implant it into our country. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Well said, well
said. Well said. Sadhguru: When… When fifty percent of the population has not
even eaten properly, you can’t be debating nuances of democracy, it’s just stupid. You go to United States of America, in every sports event, okay – in a baseball match, national anthem is played, everybody will stand up like this (Gestures),
okay – with their hand on their heart. Well, you’re discussing some kind of French
revolution, all right? But you don’t have River Seine flowing, nor do you have Paris around you (Few laugh). You have slums around you, you have a stinking Yamuna flowing. You shouldn’t be talking the same language, and half the people have not eaten properly. Just take a walk Just take a walk in one of the villages, you will see sixty percent of the population, their skeletal system has not grown to full
size. We are busy producing underdeveloped human
beings. Substandard human beings you’re producing and you’re talking about a great nation and
fanciful ideas. This is not the time. When everybody is well-fed, when things are taken care of, then maybe you can talk about certain things. This is not the time. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): I don’t agree
with you Sadhguru. I don’t think great nations are built out
of economic well-being, but my… that’s my simple point of polite
disagreement with you. Let me Sadhguru: I’m not Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Let me Sadhguru: I’m not saying economic well-being. Eating – what I need to eat to sustain this
body is not economic well-being, it is fundamental right, whether there is a nation or no nation (Applause). Not just for a human being Not just for a human being – for every worm, insect, animal, bird – the basic sustenance necessary for their survival
is the right of that creature, isn’t it? So this is not about economic well-being. This is a must for every life. Every worm, insect, bird, animal, tree must
get the fundamental nourishment, of course we are included as one of the creatures. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): No, I… I meant it in your linking the talk of a great nation to whether we have
everything that we need. I think we still can be, even if we don’t. Sadhguru, with, again, polite disagreement
with you – the, you know, what happened in Bangladesh
after the famine also saw the rise of the greatest form of nationalism
in Bangladesh. So, history teaches us different lessons at
different points of time. I don’t want to argue with you on this. We’ll go aside and have an argument after
this (Laughter). My… My… My… My point to you, which you… which provokes
me to take this discussion further Sadhguru, why have… have we become, like, have we insulated ourselves? The better we do, the more we want to cut ourselves off from
our own country and our surroundings. And I agree with your previous point. In 1997, Sadhguru, I was in NDTV. There was a story which came out, a reporter called Sampath Mahapatra called
me, and he said that there is a story I want to
go and report and we needed approval from the headquarters
to send the reporter down. Sampath went there and he said, “There is a village where people are dying.” We sent him there. When he went there, he said that there was
an entire village, which which was dying and the reason for that was
horrifying. There was complete starvation in that village there was a drought, there was no health facilities, there was not a grain of rice. So the people of this area, which is the KBK
Kalahandi Balangir Koraput belt in Orissa, started taking the seeds of mangoes, putting it into muddy water, and making a soup of it. That, because it was so hot, started becoming
rotten. And so it was a… a rotten mango gruel that
was prepared, and because they were so hungry and no mother can see her child starve, they were poisoning themselves to death because they were so hungry they had to eat something. In my life, I remember, at that time, as a
reporter, I stood outside gat number one of Parliament. I was so angry, and I confronted the then
food minister who said to me that ‘In such a big country, if twenty, thirty
people die, you people make a big issue out of it’ and I was shocked and horrified Sadhguru. Till this date I feel, and people say to me, “Why do you scream so much?” I say, “Because in this country, you don’t
yell, you don’t scream, nobody gives a damn.” I still do believe that in this country. We believe in that taken for granted attitude because we think everything’s okay with us,
why should we care about the rest of the world? We are growing, but the chasm in our country
is also growing – between the rich and the poor, between the haves and the have-nots, between those who have everything and those
who don’t have any shelter and yet we feel happy enough to cut ourselves
off from it. Is it true that we spend a large amount of
our time cutting ourselves off from our own country? Is this not one of the greatest problems of
India today that we, the privileged sections of India, have cut ourselves off from the rest of India,
and is there a solution for it? Sadhguru: See, the question is not about the disconnect between the well-to-do and
not-so-well-to-do, or the impoverished regions of our nation. We are…We have not invested enough in the
fundamental nature of our humanity. We’ve become many things other than being
human. If you sat here as just a human being, it would be very natural for you that your
heart beats for everything around you. But now you’ve become so many things – starting from gender, language, culture, religion, race, ethnicity – in many ways we have identified ourselves. Because of these identities, these all these identities give you a certain sense that you can undermine your humanity. You cannot undermine your humanity if you
did not have these identities, or if you did not give it too much priority. You All of us have those identities at a certain
level – cultural identities are there, language identities are there, but they are not fundamental to us. Our fundamental nature is that we are life. If you sat here as life, you would reverberate
with every life, nobody had to tell you – you would be that way, but that has not happened. That is because we are a amoral country – we’ve never had codes of morality in this
nation. We have always managed populations because in every generation there were enlightened
beings, hundreds of them! And so we managed human consciousness in a
certain way. By making people conscious, we manage situations
in a beautiful way. Wherever those people did not come, or not enough were there, there anarchy happened, chaos happened because we have never had a set of morality because morality makes you act, but doesn’t
transform you. For example, I’m…I’m sorry, I’m not commenting
on the team of the club. For example, the word service, leaving the theme of this. See, it’s like this – if you Let’s say there is a child starved out on
the street. If you pick up the child and feed this child
and take care of this child, you think it is service. But if you pick up your own child and do that, you don’t think it is service. What is the difference, I’m asking? For one, your heart is beating, for the other it is not. So, the bareness of heart is the basis of
all this. We’re always trying to do good. You don’t have to goo…do any good, you just have to become a full-fledged human
being. A full-fledged human being means a natural, conscious response to everything, and what best you could do, you could do. And that’s all a man can do that you are at your best always, to everybody
and everything. Are you doing the greatest? Maybe not, but I am doing my best. If every human does their best, in every sphere
of life, with every life that they come in touch with,
something will happen. But above all, this is a more large-scale
problem that there is lack of planning, lot of… lack of policy, lack of corrections, and irresponsible population explosion. In 1947 we were only 33 crores. Today we are 120 crores, or 25 crores. Four times over in seventy years is irresponsible
reproduction. This is not because we have over-reproduced. We must understand this. In 1947, a… the average life expectancy
of an Indian was only twenty-eight years. Today we are reaching somewhere sixty-three,
sixty-four, which is a great achievement. We should further push it, but on an average, a woman used to go into pregnancy when she
was fourteen, fifteen, or sixteen. Today we have pushed it to something like
nineteen, twenty is the average when they’re getting pregnant. So by the time she is sixty-five or seventy, there are four generations behind her, or three generations behind her and one or two generations ahead of her. That means right now, in many families, there are five generations living. This is not good. This is very brutal what I am saying, I know, but at any time there is space only for three
generations – your parents, yourself, and your children. There can’t be five generations living. That’s what is happening right now in this
country and in many other places, especially in this
country. Five generations are living, so there is no
space. Once there is such a load, people will keep their humanity in the attic
and go about brutally. That child who comes and knocks on your traffic
space, I would cry at one time. Now I’m trying to look down because every
time I don’t have money to pull out. Most of the time I don’t have, I have to ask the driver who’s driving, “Please give me some money” (Laughs). So I try to look down. So you’re trying to put down your humanity
for some time, but it would be natural for me to pull out
whatever I have and give it to him, but now you can’t do it because it’s everywhere. It’s… It’s too much of a problem for you to address
individually. Wherever you can do, whatever you can do,
you do, but you’re not able to address everything. Slowly, you try to insulate your humanity. This is what is happening. It is not that people have become brutal, it’s not that people have become inhuman – because the problem is so pervasive, you’re not able to address it. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Has hate increased
after Trump? Sadhguru: Hmm? Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Has hate increased
after Trump (Laughter)? Sadhguru: It has not increased. It is just that it’s little emboldened. It’s not increased. I spent substantial time in United States,
in and out, it was always there. Now it is finding expression, but I think that’s a temporary upsurge. I think it’ll control itself, law… law enforcement will take charge. After some time they’ll pick up a few people, handle that, but hate crimes have been happening all the
time in America. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Has Europe invited
trouble on itself? You know, it’s opened the doors. There’s been a lot of immigration. Sadhguru: They have not opened doors. They have closed all the doors, they’ve built
fences. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Now they are. Sadhguru: They’re just not allowing the media
near the fences anymore, or media also is part of it. They don’t go near the fences, they only shoot
the open spaces (Laughs). Their cameras don’t pick up the fences. Most nations have put up barbed-wire fences
wherever the migrants could come, and they’ve stopped, all right? You can’t blame them either because they’re
coming in millions. If millions of new people come with a completely
different cunture culture, a religion which they will not compromise, and they will not fit into your society, they will try to create their own society, local people will feel insecure. It’s… See, it is it is a multi-headed problem, it’s not a simple problem. So this is why… I’m saying, for all these Azadi groups also, the moment you break the fabric of any nation
– it doesn’t matter how fragile, how ramshackle it is, the moment you break it, what comes out of it is such a thing that
you cannot control it. See, if you had not bombed out these nations, if you had not bombed out Iraq, Syria, Lybia,
Afghanistan, wherever, if you had not done that If you had negotiated and settled those problems
to whatever extent – you can’t fix all the problems, at least you could have contained the problems. If you had done that, these people would not
be moving to Europe. Tch, somehow they would continue to live because nobody wants to leave their place
of birth, and their parentage and everything just for
nothing. When it became terrible, they want to go. But once the momentum starts The things that I’ve seen in Europe, I cannot utter here, it’s terrible, what these migrants are doing to themselves
to earn just one meal is too horrible. The women are all on the streets, all kinds of people – with children and everything they’re on the
streets selling themselves because there is no other way to make a living. It’s These are all people who lived reasonably
well. Reasonably well means maybe not in… in the
same level of economic well-being as the Western Europe, but they lived with some dignity, with some pride in their own lands. I drove from Beirut, to Damascus, to the Iraqi
border, I just drove myself through the desert and fantastic country it was just seven years
ago, you know really nice country. Particularly this city…Aleppo City, which is an 8000-year-old city. This city was built on taxes levied on Indian
traders. So you must assume what is the level of trade
that was happening between India and Damascus and Jerusalem was
such, just by the taxes that the Indian traders
paid, they built a city, a living city, 8000 years old – one of the most beautiful cities, if you ask me. Today when I see on the news channels, Aleppo, it’s What is it? Is this a solution for anybody? So, you may have Whatever, people earn Nobel Peace prizes, but this is the kind of solutions they offer
to the world. There was no need to do these things. There was a way to negotiate. Because of this simplistic, moralistic attitude
that you have that this is a good guy, this is a bad guy
– this is basic stuff – good guy, bad guy business and millions of people. Over a million are dead, over 10 to 15 million
are homeless. Nobody is counting these numbers, really,
properly, but what’s happened to Aleppo when I see on
the screens, I can’t believe it. This is a city that I enjoyed so much just
seven years ago, and the people were so wonderful. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): I’m… I’m… I’m not quite sure. You know, you… you quickly passed through
my question when I asked about when happened in America and you glanced it through, and you said that’s it’s a… it’s a temporary
phenomenon. I… I personally… Sadhguru… S (Overlapping conversation) Sadhguru: No, I’m saying I’m saying nothing has changed as the news
channels are trying to project that suddenly America has changed, become a cauldron of hate. It’s not true. Generally there is a racial discrimination
in the country, all of us face it somewhere or the other,
especially me (Laughs). I’ve not been shot at yet, but people have given me daggers (Laughs). And so many things happen there. It’s… We just say, “Okay, this is how this country
is and go on.” There’s… America has the most beautiful aspects of
life also, and very extremely negative aspects also because this is that kind of a melting pot
– all kinds of people. Now, those people… some of those people
are feeling emboldened and they think they can act, but I’m telling you, they were acting even
before. How many hate crimes have happened? Recently, in the last one-two years you must
have seen all these black people being shot in many
places – they put it on the Facebook live and all that
stuff – but this has been happening all the time. Suddenly, because of the Facebook, you think
it’s happening – no, it’s been happening all the time, now the world knows. Otherwise, the people who live there, they always know this happens all the time. Just look back at the statistics – let’s in nine… in 2016, 2015, how many Indians, how many blacks, how many Hispanics have been killed? I don’t think the numbers have changed, the reporting has changed. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): You’re blaming
the media for that? Sadhguru: I’m not blaming the media. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): You’re not blaming
Trump (Sadhguru laughs). You’re not blaming Trump, but you’re blaming the media for that. I… I think… I think Trump _____ (Unclear) as such. Sadhguru: See, n… No, no, I’m… I… I’m saying, yes, definitely his presence has emboldened
them, but I’m saying nobody needs to embolden them, they have been always doing it. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Yeah. Sadhguru: Maybe now they’re uttering the words, they’re not afraid of uttering the words because they think in the highest office there
is support. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Sadhguru, now,
let’s look at a few issues that you have raised in the last three minutes. You say that, you know, there must be a better
solution, there must be no confrontation. Non-violence is not always the answer. Sadhguru: No. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): I would argue. Sadhguru: Yes. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): You know, it…
it’s okay to say, it’s n… it doesn’t deliver results. Sadhguru: No. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): In your view, can non-violence be an answer? For example, to Jihadi terrorism? Sadhguru: Not at all. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): So if not so, then what I would like you to tell this audience
is, dealing with one of the greatest individual
constructs of problems in the world today, which is Jihadi terrorism, in your view Sadhguru, what is the direct antidote to Jihadi terrorism, an immediate and quick solution to it? Sadhguru: What is the direct antidote – that’s what I’m doing, that’s my work, but quick solution, I don’t have one (Laughs). There’s no quick solution. Individual transformation is the only solution, but that’s not a quick solution, but a lasting solution. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): What is your What is the solution to it? Let me rephrase that – what is the solution
to it? Sadhguru: I’m saying Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): How do you deal
with it? If you were a world leader Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): … Sadhguru,
which you are in your own way, but if you were a political leader, facing
the problem of Jihadi terrorism, what would you do to take a turn? Sadhguru: See, we must understand this – though nobody wants to spell it out, nobody wants to say it – it is written – not in one – in many religious books across the world, it is written clearly, “Those who are not like you deserve to be
killed.” Let’s come to the point. I know this may bring things upon myself,
but it’s okay. Not in any one book, in many books it is written
clearly – those who do not believe the same things that
I believe must die, they are fit to die, they’re unfit to live here. This is clearly there. So because people are claiming it is the word
of god, they don’t have the courage to amend the book. It is time that you take sensible part of people who
believe in these books and say, “See, if you edit these ten pages, your book will become wonderful” (Laughs). Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): The boys who… The boys who carried out the Dhaka attack came from very, very elite families. Some of them spoke accented English, they simply wore black robes, called themselves ISIS, went into a café and shot innocent people. When a philosophy as dangerous as that, and I wouldn’t use the w… term philosophy. When a belief as dangerous as that becomes
as viral, as potent, it grows organically, ISIS then becomes a thought process, not even a terrorist organization. Then, how do you deal with it? Sadhguru: I… I need to correct that question a bit. It is not organic – it is very organized. Till you address this, you will not address
the problem. It is very, very organized. So if anything that’s organized, it has a
source. If you have any kind of administrative strength
and skills, when you see something threatens the fabric
of the society, you must know where is the source for these
organizations and deal with it, but we don’t have the courage to deal with
it because every six months we got an election. Okay? Every six months or eight months there is
an election going on somewhere and because of the (Laughs) – this I’ll blame on you – because of 24×7 channels, some election is happening in Manipur, it feels like a national election is happening. In Tamil Nadu everybody is sitting and watching
Manipuri elections (Laughs) because it’s made to feel like there’s election going on, and when they’re… when politicians are in
election mode, you don’t expect responsible action. It is expected because this is the nature
of democracy. That is the time of hyperbole, but that should be only once in five years. I think we are working towards that, that’s
a good thing – that elections will be only once in five years and that’s how it should be because it is not that they’re all bad, but these are the compulsions of a democracy. When you When you go into an election campaign, you cannot say, “I am taking this economic step, this economic
step, this economic step” because the crowd there doesn’t understand
any of these things, you have to rev up their passion about something. So in that mode, you can’t fix a nation. So this is not organic, let’s be very clear about this. This is super organized. It has grown everywhere in the world with
a tremendous sense of organization. Where there is an organization, there is always a head and if you know how to administer a nation, you must know how to handle this. Questioner (Rahul Mera): So, one observation
Sadhguru, which is an… and a comment, probably you haven’t seen “Oh My God”
(Referring to a Bollywood movie). You… You need to have… You need to have a look at that because to get all the spiritual gurus in
India under one platform never happens. It only happens when you scare, and since you’re using the word screwed up,
I’ll use the word sh… when you… when you scare the shit out of them. But coming to the serious part of it, you
know, I… I consider you and you know, I want to give
a disclaimer. I really don’t… I have a spiritual sense within me, but I don’t really follow any spiritual guru. And… And therefore, when… when, you know, when
I actually went through internet and… and
heard a few of your interviews in conversation, I found in you a very logical person, a person who is practical, a person who is scientific in his answers, and therefore, you know, there was a connect. But there were two things which actually broke
that connect, and there’s a disconnect and I hope you can
mend that today – which is, when you talked about, and… and
maybe I’d got it wrong, so therefore, you know, if you… if you could
just kindly explain what you meant by that. That certain women don’t need to enter certain
temples, or maybe women in certain temples need to
no… you know, need to stay out. So that’s one. And the other is the recent one where in jallikattu
– you talked about fundamental rights of animals
and every… birds and everything – but in jallikattu you supported the… the
other side of it. So, why was this? And since it was kept political by Arnab,
most part of it, and I think many of us out here were wanting
to hear the spiritual side of you. So I’m… I’m following it up with a… with a… with
a political question. Sadhguru: See, we must understand this. There are two reasons – those people who are propagating certain things
and also there is a certain unfortunate discriminatory
process. But essentially, culturally, this nation – before invasions and other things happened, this nation did not have a big discriminatory
process between men and women. You look back on the ancient societies here, there was absolutely no discrimination. Most of the country was matriarchal. They obviously, because this is You must understand, many things today are
common between men and women not because of liberalism, simply because
of technology. Technology has leveled the ground in many
ways. Your muscle doesn’t mean as much as it meant
a thousand years ago. When human beings were doing everything with
their body, man’s muscles were important. So he dominated the world in a certain way. Once technology came, your muscles if you have lot of muscles, we’ll give you
a menial job, we’re not going to make you the boss here. So because of that, things changed slowly. But in the spiritual dimension of this country, there never was any discrimination. You must understand, if you don’t know this, as per the Hindu norms, a Hindu man cannot go to heaven without his
wife. How nice is that (Few laugh)! There are no other Apsara and other whatever, they’re not waiting there. You have to go there with your wife. You decide whether you want to go to heaven
or not – that’s up to you (Laughter) – but a Hindu man cannot go to heaven without
his wife next to him. She has to be there. So these are different ways this society addressed
this, but when the invasions happened, particularly, first thing that they’re going for is your
wife and your daughter. That’s the first thing that people will take
away, and it’s the most disgraceful thing and the
most painful thing. So they all hid them in the granaries of the
time, and when continuously these raids were ravaging
the society, slowly, “Don’t step out of the house” became a norm because generation after generation, the raids
kept on happening. So – there’re many historical aspects, leave
that – about the temple entry, there is no such thing anywhere that a woman
should not enter the temple because she is a woman, you understand? It is just that, certain temples, they are doing certain occult work, there are certain forces there (Laughs) I… I… I’ve… I have to talk about biology. One thing is mountain temples, we said women should not go because you must understand, those were days – this is a tiger land. When I say tiger land, today the poor tiger
has to be protected as if it’s a pussy cat (Few laugh). Those days they prowled in thousands. Going into the jungle and coming back alive
is a big thing. If you don’t know this, even today there is
a practice that if people…tribal people, walk in the jungle, though there are not so many tigers anymore, they will take some incense and walk because they don’t want the wild animals
to smell them. There is sambrani in the South Indian temp Do you know what’s sambrani? What do you call it north? Sambrani only, right? Participant: Sambrani. Sadhguru: Yeah, either they burn it or they
smear it on their body and walk so that the wild animals…the carnivorous
animals cannot smell you. It is no more relevant because there’re not
so many left, but at that time it was really tiger country. So the very nature of woman’s biology is such that a carnivorous animal will always smell
out a woman much more easily than a man, especially at… at certain times of the month, it will definitely smell it… smell her out. So they said, “Mountain temples she should
not go.” All the mountain temples, they’re restricted. Now those things are gone, women are equipped
in a different way than the way they were at that time and the
wildlife is scant, it is very much possible to go. The other kind of temples where they were
asked not to go were, where they’re doing occult work. When they’re doing occult work, I’m telling
you, whether you like it or you don’t like, maybe
you’re liberal, but you don’t know the fundamentals of nature. The nature is such that when you do certain
occult work, a woman is more susceptible to damage herself
in such situation than a man. Even for a man, if there is any injury in the body, they won’t let him into that place where they’re
doing occult because it will affect him. So, this was done with a certain care and
concern, not as a discrimination. Today you’re taking it up as a political activism and thinking everybody should go to everywhere
it’s fine. Then the thing is you should not do that kind
of work because it’ll be harmful. Even today in this country, if a woman is in early stage of pregnancy, we won’t allow her to come to the funerals. Do you know this? It is a very sensible thing to do. It is not discrimination. It is protection, not just for the woman,
but for the child that she carries it’s very, very important. If you do not look at life the way it is, how the life forces function, how it is best for us to be, and if you just talk about social equality,
social equality, then you will do silly things which will only, in the end, make the women suffer. But now it’s become political activism. Probably those temples are not doing any occult
of any great strength, so maybe it doesn’t matter, that’s a different
matter. But if you’re talking politics, if you’re talking about equality, there are only two places where you should
be even concerned whether somebody is a man or a woman. What is in somebody’s pants is not your business. Only in bedrooms and bathrooms you must be
concerned about these things. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Sadhguru, if
I may. Completely, totally, thousand percent disagree
with you. I… I have… You know, in this country, the problem has
been that a lot of people take upon themselves the responsibility
of protecting women and Sadhguru: Tch, tch, tch, tch. This is… This is not like that. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): … no, no, let
me give you my perspective Sadhguru. You see, in this country of ours, at one point
of time, it was also told that sati (Referring to a
funeral custom where a widow immolates herself on her husband’s pyre or commits suicide in
another fashion shortly after her husband’s death) is tradition. So we must understa Sadhguru: Shall I… Shall I clear that? Now you raised something, shall I clear that? Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): No, no, can I… Can I… Ca… No, no, I… Let me complete the… Let me complete the pa… Let me complete the _____ (Unclear). Sadhguru: Okay (Laughter). Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): The second point
is, there are no tigers who are going to eat women when they go to Shani Shingnapur or
Sabarimala. By your own argument, there was a rationale
you say for not letting women – a logical rationale – for not letting women
into temples earlier. That rationale doesn’t exist today. Sadhguru: It doesn’t. That’s what I’m saying. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): So then change… So then change the rules which have been created. Sadhguru: I… I am saying just that – where it comes from and where, when situations
change, we have to change the norms accordingly. That’s what I’m saying. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): No, no Sadhguru,
see here, look at how unfair this is. In this country there are women who can be
divorced on Whatsapp (Sadhguru laughs) on triple talaq on Whatsapp. Sadhguru: That’s another matter (Laughs). Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): No, it’s the
same matter. In this country we must understand the sensibilities
of people today. They are going to question what is injustice. Sadhguru: Definitely Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): A woman is being
kept out of a temple because she is told that she is impure. Sadhguru: Che che… Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): By the definition
of what is pure and impure, if it doesn’t apply in today’s context… Sadhguru: No, no, no… Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): …in today’s
context, then we need to give voice to that. All I’m saying to you Sadhguru is another
point of polite disagreement with you and we will never agree on this point. Sadhguru: No, no, we will come… We’ll come to the agreement disagreement. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): No, no but things
have changed. I know this personally Sadhguru. I have some understanding of the pulse of
this country. We did a campaign called the ‘right to pray.’ I wish Sadhguru you were there with me when
phone lines were opened, when people – men, women, children – from
all over the country called up and said what happens in Shani Shignapur, Haji Ali or Sabarimala is unfair. That is a perspective which must be understood, that’s all I’m saying. Sadhguru: See, please if you… The thing is, I know (Overlapping conversation)… I know you are in a certain profession where
you only ask questions, but you must listen to what I’m saying (Laughter/Applause). Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): No, I… Sadhguru… Sadhguru… Sadhguru… Sadhguru let me tell you one thing. No, no, no just one… Sadhguru: No, no let me finish. You asked a question, right? Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): No, no, no, Sadhguru,
let me tell you one thing, please understand that the logic is also understood by people and the right to question what is
wrong is essential to my profession. Sadhguru: Yes. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): The day I stop
questioning what is wrong… Sadhguru: I’m not questioning that… Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): …then I will
not be true to my profession. Sadhguru: I’m not questioning that, but I’m telling you, please because what is simple basic logic and in how many ways life happens are two
different things. Whatever we did to protect from wildlife and
stuff is not relevant anymore because women are not in the same condition,
they’re equipped in many different ways. Going up to hill temples would be very much
possible, that’s not a issue at all. But where there is genuine occult, I would still not send my daughter there or anybody that I know because this… even for a man if he’s in a certain condition,
it’ll affect him if he’s not of a certain nature, but woman is much more susceptible to this. Is such a thing happening in the temple or
not, is a questionable thing but this is not about protecting women from
somebody, because this is the nature of our biology, we cannot ignore it, all right? Now, talking about Sati, nobody can endorse such a thing. Talking about three words will dismantle your
marriage, because three words may happen in moments
of anger and disagreement and something and it’s over, this is (Laughs) another thing altogether. Sati as a thing came up again when… only when men were killed in battle. When men were killed in battle, when other people entered the towns, what happened to the women was worse than
death. Because of that, they got into this mode – if… when my husband who is a soldier dies, I kill myself because what happens after that
is worse than death. So that came from that and somebody exploited and stretched it. Well, we stopped that reasonably, I think
almost… almost totally stopped that, that’s a different
thing. If you think I’m speaking for not equality
of women, it’s (Laughs) I don’t want to say anything, I don’t
want to defend that because my life is not about looking at someone as
man and woman. As I said (Applause) only… only in a certain context of our life we have to recognize the gender of a person. Rest of the time, why should be even recognize
the gender of a person? A human being is a human being. Only in certain aspects of our life, somebody is a man, somebody is a woman. All the time thinking, “I am a man, you
are a woman”, is… drives to madness. Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): I’ll make this
pass but I’ll just make one observation. If you say you have to enter heaven with your
wife, you can enter heaven with your wife but you can’t enter a particular temple
with your wife, I don’t think that’s fair. Sadhguru: No, no, no, no, no, no… Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): I… take the
next question Sadhguru… Sadhguru: No, you can’t have the last word
on that. (Overlapping conversation) You can’t have the last word… I’m… I only mentioned the heaven business not because
I believe there is a heaven. No, no, I did not talk about the heaven because I think there is a heaven and you’re going
to heaven. I know you’re not going to any such place
(Laughter) but I am saying the source… the society and the culture tried to control the natural urge for a man to dominate the
woman with these kind of things. That’s all I said. Questioner: Sadhguru, you talked about self-enrichment
and self-consciousness, you were gonna give us some tools. I think we all got distracted, none of us have heard about the tools that
you could offer us (Applause). Sadhguru: See, it’s like this. The nature of your existence, your experience and your perception is right
now like this. You know that you are here right now because you can see, you can hear, you can smell, you can taste and you can touch. Suppose right now you just dozed off a little
bit. You’re still very alive and everything is
going on here but if you doze off a little bit, the first thing is I will disappear for sure. If you doze some more, everybody will disappear. If you go more, even you will disappear. This is the nature of human experience. Simply because the five sense organs have
shut down, suddenly the world is obliterated, even you are obliterated. Or in other words, your entire experience
of life right now is limited to five sense organs. These sense organs, in the very nature of
things cannot see anything the way it is, they can only see everything in comparison. You know what is light only because you know
darkness. You know what is sound only because you know
silence. You know this only because of that, because… See, right now if I touch this, my hand says this cup is cool. No, it is not so. It is because of the way my body temperature
is, I’m thinking this is cool. If I lower my body temperature and touch this, this would be warm to me. So your entire perception is by comparison. Perception by comparison is good enough for
survival process, it is not good enough for knowing the nature
of life. It will help you to survive in the world – these five sense organs will help you to survive
in the world but it will not give you any sense about what
this life is about. So if you have to know life the way it is, not the way it’s projected to be… When I say, “Not the way it is projected
to be”, see right now let’s say you’re six feet
tall, now in this society you stand like a tall
man, you walk like a tall man, you feel like a tall man, you are a tall man. You went to another society where everybody
is eight feet tall, suddenly you feel like a short man, stand like a starnstesh… short man, walk like one and feel like on and you are
one, isn’t it? So what you know by comparison is only good
enough for survival in a given situation. It is not good enough instruments to know
life in its essence. So if you want to know something more, you have to enhance your perception. Right now, everything that you carry in your
mind as information is all this comparisons and half bits and
pieces. When I say bits and pieces, right now you can see this (Gestures) part
of my hand that means you cannot see this part of my
hand (Gestures). This’s not just with my hand, even if you
take a grain of sand, you can…if you see one part, you cannot
see the other part. This is the nature of human perception (Laughs). When… When this question came up, when Arnab asked this question some time ago, when I was a child, I stared and stared, trying
to bend my perception around this because I saw I can see only part of it. How to see the other part? You wouldn’t believe this, by the time I
was eleven years of age, I would walk in the jungle – alone, by myself
– for three to four days, till my bread lasted, alone and I learned
to see in the dark, absolutely, as good as the animals and not just walking, I caught dozens of snakes in the dark. They couldn’t believe that I can see as
good as them but I could pick them up because it is just a question of enhancing
your perception and a human being is capable of this because
in this… on this planet, we have the most evolved neurological
system. But because of cerebral activity which is
new (Laughs)… I mean evolutionary scale it is a new happening, because of that we’re too enamored with
our thought and emotion, we don’t feel so many things. But actually you have a better neurological
system than any creature on this planet, do you agree with me? But if you want to smell something out, you’ll
bring a dog If you want something else, you’ll look
at something else, because they don’t have this thought process, they’re able to just be keen on how they
perceive their senses. But human being’s ability to sense anything
has gone down because they are completely going on with
their own thought – their own thought and emotion keeps them busy
for their entire life. Their psychological reality has overshadowed
their existential reality. This is the biggest problem. So when we talk about life, we are not talking about a psychological space. Today if you say life if somebody says, “My life”, you are supposed to think he’s talking about
his work, he’s talking about his family, he’s talking about his car, he’s talking about his wealth, he’s not talking about life. Life means this, what is throbbing inside
and keeping this alive right now. This is life, isn’t it? But when people say life, you’re supposed
to understand that he’s not talking about life, he’s actually talking about his job or wealth
or money or business or something because your idea of life has become purely
survival. The idea of evolution or the possibility of this evolution is that a human being is capable of rising beyond
their survival process. This is the reason why survival doesn’t
fulfill you. For every other creature, their survival requirements
are taken care of, they’re just fine, they have no other issue. Eating, sleeping, reproducing, their life
is complete. Till these things happen to you, you think these are big things but once they happen to you, they don’t
mean anything. You want something more to happen. If that something more happens, you want something more. If that something more happens, you want something
more. If you look at this, what you want is not more, what you want is all. And if you want all, you should not go by extending physical boundaries
because physical can never be all, isn’t it? You’re… Unknowingly, you’re desiring for the infinite but you think you will get there by counting
1 2 3 4 5. No, you will only become endless counting. You will only become endless counting. Now, because we are looking at everything
in comparison, in many ways we have fragmented the world, even our own species between men and women and everything and everything is divided because we are perceiving everything through sense
perception, we don’t have a life perception. So if you have to transcend the limitations
of your senses – it is not that senses are bad, without that you wouldn’t even know that
you exist, senses are fundamental, without it you cannot
survive – but once you’re human, survival is not good enough, something more needs to happen. For that something more, some striving is needed. You must look at this properly. Anything in your life which is about survival
has come to you just naturally. See, suppose you got lost in a jungle as an
infant – no contact with any human society – something edible came in front of you, would you first try your ears, then your nostrils, then your eyes and accidentally
find your mouth? No. Anything concerned with survival, you just
know, isn’t it? But you wouldn’t know how to read, how to write, language, this, that, many other
things you would not know because anything beyond survival will not
come to you unless you strive for it. So, to turn inward, that means… Why I’m saying turn inward is because these sense organs are essentially
outward bound but the experience of your life is happening
from within you. Do you see me? Hello, all of you? Do you see me? Even if you’re not listening to me, it’s
okay, but do you see me (Laughter)? Can you use one hand and point out where I
am? Tch, you got it all wrong, you know I’m
a mystic (Laughter)? Now, this light is falling upon me, reflecting, going through your lenses, inverted
image in the retina, you know the entire story? So where do you see me? You see me within yourself. Where do you hear me? You hear me within yourself. Where have you seen the whole world? Within yourself. Everything that ever happened to you – light and darkness happens within you, pain and pleasure happens within you, joy and misery happens within you, agony and
ecstasy happens within you – just about anything that ever happened to
you, happened only within you. You have never experienced anything outside
of you. Right now if somebody touches your hand, you think you’re experiencing their hand, no you’re only experiencing the sensations
in your hand, isn’t it? Now your entire experience is within. When it is so, what happens from within at least what happens within you must happen
the way you want it, isn’t it? If you happen just the way you want it, would you keep yourself in the highest level
of pleasantness or unpleasantness? Pleasantness. The choice for yourself is definitely pleasantness, what you want for your neighbor may be debatable but what you want for yourself is very, very
clear. But that one thing is not happening. Why I’m talking about pleasantness is, there is substantial medical and scientific
evidence today that if you remain pleasant, without a moment of anger, anxiety, irritation,
agitation, nothing, for twenty-four hours if you remain like this, they are saying your ability to use your intelligence
can go up by hundred percent – in twenty-four hours’ time! So pleasantness or joy or bliss is not a goal
by itself, it is a fundamental necessity, in the sense, only if your experience of life is pleasant, and if there is no fear of suffering, will you walk full stride, otherwise fear of suffering will always cripple
you in so many ways. But today it’s become like this, people… well even spiritual leaders are
going about talking, saying that ‘peace of mind is the ultimate
goal of life.’ Such people will only rest in peace (Laughter). I was to speak in Tel Aviv. And I’m flying out of Atlanta in United
States and I’m to land there at eleven in the morning and speak at 6:30 in the evening. I end up landing there because of some flight
delays at six in the evening. So I’m quickly changing in the airport because in these thirty-five years I’ve
not been late to a single event or appointment. I’ve managed this always (Applause). So I’m rushing and I am famished. I’m super hungry because I’m flying an
American airline, there’s nothing edible on that plane (Laughter). But I don’t have a moment to grab something
so I just went straight and to my amazement I found I’m speaking
at a fine restaurant. That doesn’t happen at all to me (Laughs). I thought this is it. When I’m so hungry, this is the place to
go. And people are already coming in, some people greeting me and one man comes
and says ‘Shalom.’ I ask him, “What does it mean?” He says, “This is the highest way of greeting.” I said, “Well, that’s your opinion, what
does that mean?” He said, “No, no this is really the highest
way of greeting.” “All right, but what does the word mean?” He says, “It means peace.” Then I say, “Why is peace the highest way of greeting,
unless you’re born in Middle East” (Laughter)? You come in South India, in the morning you come and say, “Peace!” I’ll say, “What’s wrong with you, eh”
(Laughter)? I’m saying if you deprive yourself of something
for long enough, suddenly slowly it’ll rise to heaven. If you’ve not eaten for five days, let you say… let us say your favorite god appeared, what will you ask? Food? Food will raise to heaven. Everything that you don’t have, will raise
to heaven. Being peaceful, it’s not the ultimate goal
of life, it is the most fundamental requirement. Today if you want to enjoy your dinner, if not ecstatic, at least you must be peaceful,
isn’t it? If you wanna take a walk on the street and
enjoy it, you must at least be peaceful. If you want to live with these handful of
people in your family, you must at least be peaceful if not ecstatic,
isn’t it? If you want to enjoy the few things that you
do in your life, the most fundamental thing basic requirement is at least you’re peaceful. But today people are saying it is the ultimate goal of life – ‘peace of mind.’ That’s never going to happen, because they have not understood the simplest
aspects of life. For example, your mind. Can we? Participants: Yes Sadhguru: The simplest aspect. It’s like this, because people are falling out of scriptures,
this is the biggest problem. I was about to tell a joke but Arnab was serious
(Laughs). This happened in Tennessee. You know we… our center in United States is in Tennessee, it’s a hardcore religious place. People said, “Sadhguru, you’ll get killed
in no time.” But we’re flourishing in Tennessee, doing
very well because they can’t figure out who I am (Laughs). I go out to this… into this little town and I’m new there and I’m smiling at everybody
and greeting people on the street – small little town. One big man, over six feet tall, this wide (Gestures) comes and stands just
six inches away from me, looks down on me like this (Gestures) and
said, “God loves us.” I look at… up at him and say, “The way you are, only god can love you”
(Laughter). He has to love the mistakes he has made (Laughter). Before he realized – he takes time to get things, by then I’m gone of course. So in Tennessee, every family has a huge Bible. Not small, big ones. This big (Gestures). Leather bound. The bigger the family…The richer the family,
the bigger the size of the Bible. Almost every home has Ten Commandments carved
on the stone. Most of it goes from South India, these carvings
(Laughs). So it’s good business. I watched this and I say, “Okay, it’s
good for our economy, commandments or no commandments” (Laughs). So, this little boy, eight-year-old boy went
to school in… on East Coast and came back home in the vacation. So he was just flipping through this big book and a dry leaf fell out. The boy started screaming, “Momma! Momma! See what I’ve found.” His mother said, “What have you found my
son?” He said, “Just come and see what I’ve
found!” So the mother came running to see what. Then he pointed at the leaf and said, “Adam’s underwear” (Laughter)! So a lot of people, the reason why something so simple and life-oriented has become complicated is because people are falling out of scriptures. What is it that makes you think 1000, 2000, 5000 years ago people were far
more intelligent than you and me? Why is it so? Is it not such a retroga… grade step that
you think people 1000, 2000, 5000 years were much smarter
than you and me? Is it so? Is it line with the evolutionary process I’m
asking? No. But this is the thing we want to change. Today with everything around us, we handle it scientifically, using various
technologies. It is equally important that you handle your
inner nature scientifically, in a logically correct manner and with tools. Now your thing is, “Give me the tools.” These are subjective in nature. If it was a screwdriver, I would’ve come
with a bagful and given it to you. This is subjective. What is subjective means, it is something
within. Right now, everything of you is outward. That is, all your five senses are outward
bound, isn’t it? You cannot turn them inward. You can’t roll your eyeballs inward and
scan yourself. You can hear this (Clicks fingers), so much activity here, you cannot hear this. An ant crawls upon this hand, you can feel
it, so much blood flowing, you cannot feel it. In the very nature of things, your sense organs are outward bound. If you want genuine tools of transformation, I would say if you dedicate twenty-eight to
thirty hours of focused time, okay? Twenty-eight to thirty hours of focused time, we will give you tools to experience or touch
a dimension which is inward. Inward is not of thought, inward is not contemplation. What you call as mind and body is very outward
because body is something that you accumulated over
a period of time from outside, isn’t it? The soil that you walk upon is what is sitting
here as the body. If you get it now from me, your life will
transform, otherwise one day you will get it from the
maggots. Yes (Laughs). What you call as, “My mind”, is also an
accumulation of impressions that we have taken in. This is accumulation of food, this is accumulation of impressions. But between these two heaps of impressions
and food, somewhere there is something else which is… which makes all this happen. If that comes into your living experience, then you will not need any guidance from anybody. To get you there, I’m asking not twelve years of sadhana, I’m asking thirty hours of focused time. You must do that much to yourself. You deserve that (Applause). Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Thank you. Questioner: Sadhguru, my question to you. You know, when we think of bringing reforms to our religion and we all are taught that in vedas it’s
written that soul has no gender and so you know, we saw this Sati pratha being
abolished and we saw widow remarriage also so why don’t
you all as Arnab was saying, think about the entry of women in temples? Sadhguru: Fundamentally in this society there
is no such thing as discrimination. There are more Devi temples in the country
than anything else. Every village has it. But certain temples have taken this position,
mainly hill temples. This’s as I said because of a certain reason
in the past. It has to change now, no question about that. But if there are occult temples, even if they allow you, I please beg the women, please don’t go
there. By law if you are allowed, by norm if you’re allowed, still you should not go there, if you have any sense. Questioner: Yeah, so my question is to both
Sadhguruji as well as Arnab – what’s your view on our leader, Prime Minister and (Laughter) I would like to ask both of you, Sadhguruji if you are the Prime Minister tomorrow, what is one change which you would like to
bring in our country Sadhguru: Well, I’m not planning to getting
into the parliament either (Laughter). About my opinion about a leader – see I’m not a member of any political party, nor am I a fan of any political leader (Pauses) nor am I a fan of any political leader, but I have to say this – I’m politically conscious maybe for the
last nearly fifty years now. I’ve been reading newspapers for fifty years,
so – in this I find now it looks like we have the most determined
leadership ever (Applause). Are they right, are they wrong? You… It’s not for me to take a call whether they’re
right or wrong. At least India is topmost on their mind. This is very heartening for me. And… Because I have… I’ve been in certain situations with variety
of political leaders in the past, it… it always scared me that for twenty-four
hours if you are with them, they don’t have one single thought on their
mind, today what they can do for this country, sitting
in such a responsible position, which… which kind of you know, really shook
me. How is it somebody that is heading a nation with such
a huge population and a million problems doesn’t think today what can be done? At least today you have a leadership where
nation is on the topmost in their mind. But do we have to agree with everything that
they do? Not necessarily. Can we disagree with them? One hundred percent we can if what is being
done is not right for the country. Arnab spoke about this pride. Today morning also where I was, I was telling
them, “Nation is an idea. Without bringing pride and emotion towards
that, you’re not going to make it happen.” This is a crime we’ve committed. In 1947 when there was a euphoria of emotion and thing for the nation, people are willing to die for it, that was the time to enshrine the nation in
everybody’s hearts. We should not… We did not do that. We had fanciful ideas and we kind of We… We did not know what to do probably. In retrospect, in… in the… in postmortem we can say many things, we don’t know what was their mindset and
what was happening, whatever, they lost control over that, they lost that opportunity. Whenever there is strife in a nation that is the time when you can once again reshape
a country. When people are comfortable, unfortunately, most people will not be conscious. We have to build a humanity which will be
in utmost comfort and still conscious. That is when we re… really build a good
nation. But still we are in a place where unless we
are in a strife, we are not conscious of the larger well-being
of what needs to happen. So, in many ways, today even if there’s no real strife on
the street, there is strife. Arnab is going to be active in two months. Small issues – when I say small, I’m not saying small in
significance, I’m sayings small in size. See, a child falls into a tube-well, it is small in size but not small in significance. A life is a life, okay? If it is my life, it’s significant, so it is… the same way it’s significant
for everybody’s life. It may be small in size, but it is significant for what it is. So, like this there are a thousand issues
in the country and for the first time we have mediums through
which all these issues can enter everybody’s heads and everybody can think about it, so there is strife. There is going to be strife in this country. When I say strife, don’t think something
has to happen on the street, no. It needs to happen… Strife needs to happen in people’s hearts
and minds. So that is anyway going to happen. When this is happening, this is the time to build that sense of pride. But pride should not become prejudice. It’s very important. To build that pride in who we are and not developing prejudice against those
who we think are not a part of us. To…This is a… a very subtle process which needs to be done
– can… is there some ideal way of doing it? No. We will have to mess around with it… It is… That’s the only way it will happen. But we are… A new generation is coming – young people – whose thought process, whose way of looking at life has changed in
many ways. Today for the first time in the history of
humanity, more human beings are able to think for themselves
than ever before. Whether they’re thinking right or wrong
is not the debate but they’re thinking. At one time, a scripture would think for you, a guru would think for you, an elder would think for you, one man in the village would think for you, today everybody is beginning to think for
themselves. Once this happens, people will become in such a way, unless something is logically correct, they
cannot swallow it. If you make them swallow it, they cannot digest
it. This will happen. Right now you are still a generation who’s
still willing to acknowledge an authority and try to digest
something which is not logically correct. But your children will be such, even if god comes and speaks, if he doesn’t make sense to him… them, they will reject it (Applause). Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): So well said… Sadhguru: We are (Applause)…We are just
on the verge of that. So this is a time, this is a good time, because now we are moving to a place where only truth
can be the authority, authority cannot be the truth anymore – doesn’t matter where the authority is coming
from. This evolution is anyway going to happen in
the next… In my estimate, I’m saying somewhere between next twenty
to forty years’ time, all the heavens will collapse. When I say heavens will collapse, do you know what’s in heaven? You must know (Laughter). In…In Hindu heaven, the food is very good. If you are a foodie, that’s where you must go. Nala himself cooks for you – the best chef. In another place, there are those white gowned ladies who float
around legless ladies who float around in the clouds. If you like that kind of ambiance, you go
there. In another place you’ll encounter virgin
problems. If you like that, you can go there. But what do you have to do to get there? This happened in Alabama. You’ve heard of Alabama? It’s a special state in America. In a Sunday school, a Sunday school teacher
was going on, full on, full fire. And in his rhetoric he asked, “What do you have to do to go to heaven?” Little Mary, who was sitting in the front
row said, “If I scrub the church floor every Sunday
I will go to heaven.” He said, “Absolutely!” Another little girl stood up and said, “If I share fifty percent of my pocket money
with a less privileged friend I will go to heaven.” “Correct!” Another little boy said, “If I help other people, I will go to heaven.” “Correct!” Little Tommy in the back bench stood up and
said. “You got to die first” (Laughter/Applause). That’s the qualification – you got to die first. When you die, depending upon what culture you are, we will either burn you, bury you, or cut
you and throw you to the birds. One thing is, if you have not done anything eco-friendly, I’m assuring you, at least when you die, we will do something eco-friendly about you
(Laughter). We’ll put you back to earth, it’s a very good
thing to do (Laughs). If you take this body and go away somewhere, this is the worst thing to do because you’re taking away the topsoil (Laughter). So, we you will leave your body here and go to heaven. You went to heaven without a body, what are you going to do with good food and
virgins? This’s what I want to know (Laughter) – when you don’t have a body. So I’m saying, heavens will collapse (Applause). Once people start asking logical questions,
heavens will collapse. When heavens collapse We have managed humanity for a long time telling them, “Doesn’t matter you’re suffering
here, god is look at everything – your suffering – one day he will reward you up there”, with this we have been managing humanity. So this will not work. When this doesn’t work, what will people do? One big thing that’ll happen is, we will move towards chemicals. To be peaceful, we already need chemicals, to be joyful, we need chemicals, to be healthful, we need chemicals. Seventy percent of the United States population
is on prescription medication – the other thirty percent of course buying
it off the back streets (Laughter). Just Just see, in the last twenty-five years, how many more people are consuming alcohol, how many more people are consuming drugs on
this planet? It’s gone up 10000 percent. This is simply because in their minds, heaven is collapsing. you must understand this that somewhere else it will be good is going
away. They wanna have it good here. Unless you teach them Unless you teach them how to simply sit here
and be blissed out about your existence itself – the very life within you is an ecstatic
process – if you don’t teach them this, ninety percent will move toward drugs and
alcohol in a huge way in the next twenty-five to thirty years. This is not a moral issue for me. I have no moral judgment on that. It is just that, as a generation of people, we must understand, we hold this space on the planet just for
a brief period of time. There are two fundamental responsibilities. One is we must leave the world a little better
than the way it was given to us by the previous generation. This we cannot do. No matter… If we do all the right things from today, it will take another hundred-and-fifty to
two hundred years to turn back the damage we have already caused. So no way we can leave the world better than
the way it was when we came in. So in that responsibility we can’t fulfill, we can start the process now, that’s all. The next important responsibility we have
as a generation is the next generation that we produce must be
at least one notch better than us. But if ninety percent of humanity is on some
kind of chemicals, believe me, genetically we will produce a generation which
is less than us. This is a crime against humanity. So, one important aspect that every nation
has to take care of including ours is, that we must teach people how to know well-being within themselves. Unfortunately right now, we think if you give money, or food, or medicine,
it is service, if I teach you how to live joyfully it is not service. We have still See, in this country, the most important thing in the ancient India
was, you know how to be within you. This was the most respected thing because we know what will come out of this. When you have no concerns of fear when you have no fear of suffering, that is when you will walk your life full-stride. That is when great human beings are produced. If we want to produce a great nation Nation, society, these are just words. There are only individual human beings. Only if we produce great human beings will
there be a great society and a great nation and a great world (Applause). Interviewer (Arnab Goswami): Sadhguru, I’d
have to thank you at this point. Questioner: Thank you. Talking about perceptions and _____ (Unclear) about you talking about perception and expanded
awareness. I have seen my own experience of working on
myself, consciousness etcetera, I saw sometimes when the perception was expanded and then I felt it, I felt it, I also saw that there was a very thin line
between imagination and perception. There were times when one could actually pick
up a lot of information about things around us, like the energy, and sometimes it was like, “is it my fear, or is it everybody else’s
fear – the… the collective consciousness?” What validates that within me? That is it me, is it imagination, is it perception? Sadhguru: See, there are five dimensions of
receptivity in the human being, or five major points of receptivity in the
human brain itself. These five dimensions are referred to as centers of sleep, centers of imagination, centers of memory, centers of right perception, centers of perversion. Everything that comes to you, how you perceive
it depends on through which center you took it
in. You will see if you have two children at home, same genetics, same food, probably went to the same school – one goes like this, another goes like this
(Gestures). You can’t figure – how did these two people
come from the same father and mother (Laughs) because it is the way they perceive it, from where they receive it. Same things, if you receive from different
dimensions, it becomes different things within you. This is the reason why (Laughs) This is… This may look like a little thing, but I’m telling you, this is the reason why,
forever, they have been stressing on a live guru because when you walk a terrain that you’re not familiar
with, it’s best to have a guide who’s walked the
terrain. See, I… Every…Every year I trek in Tibet and Nepal. This Sherpa who walks with me, he is illiterate, he… he doesn’t know anything, spirituality
– nothing – but we’re going in the mountains, there’re two pathways, he just says, “Mmm” (Gestures?), I just go behind him. If I think I am much smarter than him and
I say, “No, like this I will go” (Gestures), maybe that’s my last day (Few laugh), you understand? In the mountains, he is the boss. He knows the terrain, he’s lived there, he’s grown up there, he has a certain sense. With all my education, I have a sense of direction. I’m an aviator, I have a certain sense of direction, I know the mathematics, I know the geometry of it, everything, but
still when I’m in the mountains, if he says, “Mmm”,
I go this way. He doesn’t even care to tell me, “Sadhguru, come this way.” He just says, “Mmm” (Laughter), I just follow him. It’s sensible to do that. When you’re walking in unfamiliar terrain,
that’s the best thing to do. Thank you

100 thoughts on “Arnab Goswami With Sadhguru – In Conversation with the Mystic @New Delhi 2017

  1. For the first time anram is silent not talking…But I like arnabs honesty..I feel he is honest even if he speaks a lot

  2. After half part of the discussion, only Arnab is seen but Sadguru's face cant be seen.. light is off.. is it done purposely……? or do you want to show that the Arnab is greater than Sadguru…?

  3. That joy that is already within ourselves , we are seeking in possessions , fame , name ,money and position : and we dont find it . We perish in our outward efforts to find happiness .In discovering soul joy you will find that something else which you were seeking through the labyrinthine ways of desires for false pleasures . You will never tire of this ever new joy of your soul which is of God.You will tire of everything else but that joy. Only the inner effort of meditation bring proof of the
    existence of joy unfading. Namaste

  4. I love u Arnab fr interviewing my fav star, I forgive u all that bullying u do with politicians,u hav done a fab job,i must tell u noody can match your questionare

  5. Arnab personally i respect you for your intelligence. But frankly speaking you no match in front of THE GREAT SADHGURU. pls stick to your subjects. You have way to much to go in spirituality. Sure u will learn a lot from him.

  6. Arnab tried a lot to pull sadhguru in political controversial discussions….Thanks to sadhguru to reply the rude question of Sardar …Rude because it was not sadhguru who was distracting from spiritual discussion….it was perhaps arnab asking political questions…..

  7. Arnab shud not think that he only shud have last word..he should also have patience to listen to other views also.. though i am a biggest fan of him..

  8. Both Arnab and Sadhguru gave out valuable points particularly towards the concept of nations…thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.

  9. Sir i dnt knw abt others thought but personally i wish u should be leading our country by joing politics because we all want a good motivation people around us

  10. Arnav Goswami….you are so stupid. You asked a question and did not let Sadguru finish and pop another dumb question. Sadguru is kind… He did not put you down. Your question were so obnoxious, you don't deserve to be anchor… Sorry man.

  11. what a talk with so much sensibility. "to be at comfort n to be conscious at d same" time is d need of d hour at any level n he told it in comoarision with d veey opposite strife situation etc!

    his love for humanity, ecosystem n to create right awareness is much broader than anyone can understand. true leader in all senses !

  12. the questioner seems to not understand sadhguru trying to explain, he keeps asking from his conditioned life learnt from physicality through perception.

  13. Sometimes it takes someone out the immediate culture
    To see clearly the big picture. There is the cautionary tale of
    History of the deep wound caused by the rift between India & Pakistan.
    And the millions spent on the military on both sides that could have fed and
    Educated all the children. We must in the West, not repeat this and make the 1%

  14. This interviews was above all experience and expectations.But we know when it comes to sadguru every word is a gem and Arnab was awesome.

  15. This Arnab Goswami was obviously exploiting the opportunity given to him to be in conversation with Sadhguru. Damn, such arrogance and blatant disrespect for a person far more learned and highly regarded the world over.

  16. Sabari Malai is a "BrahmaChari Temple" so women not allowed. Sanesswaran temple is occult practicing temples so women or injured man also not allowed or not recommended.

  17. Well, after watching this video, I can certainly feel that, it is not required to be intellectual to be in an intellectual business, like Media.

  18. What an inspirational and interesting conversation.. Sooo soo true.. it is time to change religion to responsibility..

  19. the guy is really logical but as he said,we'll never believe something blindly just because someone says so,unless we have a validation or it made sense. So 5 centers of receptions is a little hard to digest,but this was fun to watch

  20. I never liked Arnab until i saw his tough questioning here. I love Sadhguru but he has his own prejudices. Arnab is awesome! Compare him to how Juhi Chawla interviewed sadhguru 😂😂

  21. Magnetic conversion between Sadguru and Goswami gives us how to seek inside and explore immense potential- Raj Gopal Reddy – Airoli Navi Mumbai

  22. Problem with Arnab is: He does not understand that : "Acceptances are not Agreement; Arnab does not have inclination to listen itself sometimes; not a seeker of truth".

  23. First time i see arnab on silent mood…………thank to sadhgurji…….for good explanation………….

  24. I just literally loved the conversation between both… and I think from this conversation I have cultivated lots of things about our mysterious life …


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